J.D. POWER Details of MERC MODELS

[Dryce]

If you had you would see that they are leading the pack at least in the eyes of some motoring journalists, who just might know as much as you. Here it is (and it really is worth reading it all) I have added some further quotes: -

I don't trust journalists. Without dissing the cars I would say that I've seen so much nonsense spouted by reviewers on all sorts of products that I've come to four conclusions.

1) Some reviewers pull their punches or just trot out what everybody else is writing.

2) There is a tipping point effect where some cars or products get put up on a pedestal without or completely trashed. After that the die is set. Everybody just repeats the good or bad mantra.

3) The bad points and irritations of well regarded products always seem to only get noted after a new version is released. (But the way they are noted as if we all knew about them all along).

4) The reviewers who switch of the traction control and then slag off a car as being too soft or not a serious sports car should be ignored as not qualified to recommend a car for day to day road use.

I enjoy the reviews on TG but treat them as entertainment.

 

[ceejaySL]

I don't trust journalists

Don't forget they are on a junket with the manufacturers - flown to far off places, wined dined and thouroughly spoilt. Not that that would influence them.

 

[Robbo]

And it is not just What Car. Autocar also rates the S class best saloon in the world as did Auto Express last time I read their reviews.

We've heard your views on the S Class, what about your views on the rest of the model range? head and shoulders above their respective competitors?

 

[hawk20]

You clearly want to run Mercedes down at all costs.

Not true - show me evidence from my posts.

.

You ask me to show from your posts why I detect a somewhat anti Mercedes flavour. Here are a few: -

1.”…..the superior attidude of Merc dealers seems to be catching them out too.”

2. “The mass perceived wisdom that MB is mechanically brilliant and superbly engineered and vastly better than other marques may be no more true than carrots are good for your eyesight............”

3. “You are clearly a real evangalist when it comes to your merc. Good luck to you! Trouble is, if it were right MB would be leading the pack rather than playing catch up. Because no amount of marketing puff will make up for shortfalls, and ultimately we, the consumer, will react against bad product by not buying it.”

4. “You make a good passioned argument, and I respect you for maintaining it, as their are numerous sources and anecdotes illustrating otherwise.”

5. “Remember - without reacting to market critiscism we, the consumer, would still be driving cars developed by manufacturers with cost in mind resulting in hideous finish, warrranty and reliability problems. Oh, then of course, that was MB of 7 years ago......”

6. “ But I suppose that when journalists panned the A class when it came out and when journalists where a bit down on the B class, and when the reviews of the ML where not good, or the old e class where bad they didn't know what they where talking about!”

Your whole approach has been to suggest that saying anything complimentary about a Mercedes is akin to being a fanatic, an evangelist and someone incapable of making up their own mind unless told by journalists what to buy. That way you can write off any favourable comment by motoring journalists or Mercedes enthusiasts. Some of the remarks above demonstrate this as do the following: -

7. “FACT - I am capable of making my own mind up as to what is right for me at that time and don't need overfed and jollied up journos perpetuating myths.”

8. “You may well believe the moon is made of cream cheese,”

Well guess what CeejaySL you are not the only one capable of making up your own mind, and you do not have a monopoly on being right.

Lastly I find it both offensive and inaccurate when you say: -
“Just because you feel that you need to justify your decision for your S class doesn't mean that everyone here has to have one too because you said we should. There are some great owners here who own what they want and not because some journo has told them to.”

Nowhere have I ever said that everyone here should have one too. That would be idiotic. But surely I have a right to give my opinions on my car –even if they happen to be favourable and clearly not to your liking- and I have a perfect right to point out and quote accurately the opinions of respected motoring magazines. You, equally, can report your experiences and present any evidence you wish to support your views.

But please try not to be so personally offensive and not to keep suggesting that anyone who doesn’t agree with you must be a fanatic of some kind, ‘an evangelist’, or someone who believes that ‘the moon is made of green cheese’ or that carrots are good for their eyesight.

 

[hawk20]

We've heard your views on the S Class, what about your views on the rest of the model range? head and shoulders above their respective competitors?

Old A class: - genius idea; not particularly well executed.
New A class: - terrific. Offers big car safety (best in class says NCAP), legroom enough even for daddy-long-legs like me, vastly improved interior and my brothers A160cdi does 65-70mpg on a run.
C class: - I had a C180 classic in 2002. I liked it. Loads of legroom (there wasn't enough for me in the 3 series), did 26,000 trouble free miles and I thought then -and still think now- that to my eyes it is one of the most beautiful modern saloons ever.
E class: - I had an E 270cdi in 2004 and did 15,000 trouble free miles in her. Nothing at all went wrong but others were not so lucky (according to JD Power and others). Speak as you find. Mine was great and it is a very good looking car, with lots of space and really good ride. Great economy, loads of grunt and more comfortable than the C class. (I have owned half a dozen E class cars- estates and saloons- petrol and diesel going back to the mid eighties. Used to do 30-40k miles p.a. Used to run 3 years then keep as family car. Only had one bad one which, in anger, I drove to MB and left as a gift for the MD. Fortunately they sent me a cheque with which I bought a Honda CRV).
Old ML class: - I had an ML270cdi in which I did 15,000 trouble free miles. Not a thing went wrong though JD Power would say I was lucky. Loveable car and so useful as an estate. Really comfortable on a long run but I found the ride a bit jittery and missed having reach adjustment on the steering wheel.
New ML: - Driven but not owned. Stunning improvement inside and out. Up with the X5 for driveability IMO but I much prefer the looks. Ride is transformed. Could be a large luxury saloon. I think only the prejudice against them and fear of Gordon Brown has stopped me having one.
CLK and SL and SLK: - all stunning looking IMO and the Bruno Sacco look will be hard to equal let alone beat. But I like to have four full size seats and legroom for daughters, friends etc.
Old S class (220 series):- I foolishly let a salesman give me the keys with the words: 'Just try it, can't do any harm'......... It is hard to put into words just how good this car is. But IMO it is as good as the motoring Press said.
New S class: - I'm not yet taken by the looks, and am doing all I can to refuse all suggestions that I borrow one for the day.
Oh forgot the B class.
Had a B200cdi with the CVT auto box. We collected it from Germany. Worthwhile trip and they really look after you. Great car. Press missed all that is great about it. It has more room than an E class in a car that will park on a Focus or Golf footprint. Genius. And huge safety with the sandwhich floor. Wife called it 'an S class you can park'. Measure the back seat, it is bigger than an E class. Measure the front seats, bigger than those in the ML! Legroom --far more than the R class. Boot size -as big as a Porsche Cayenne 4x4 or even my S class boot. But we only had it 5000 miles when I stupidly took up the offer to borrow an S320cdi for a day.

 

[Robbo]

New A class: - terrific. Offers big car safety (best in class says NCAP), legroom enough even for daddy-long-legs like me, vastly improved interior and my brothers A160cdi does 65-70mpg on a run.

Agreed, its a really good little car.

C class: - I had a C180 classic in 2002. I liked it. Loads of legroom (there wasn't enough for me in the 3 series), did 26,000 trouble free miles and I thought then -and still think now- that to my eyes it is one of the most beautiful modern saloons ever.

Agree about the looks, and lovely to drive, but mine has been the most troublesome car I have ever owned.

E class: - I had an E 270cdi in 2004 and did 15,000 trouble free miles in her. Nothing at all went wrong but others were not so lucky (according to JD Power and others). Speak as you find. Mine was great and it is a very good looking car, with lots of space and really good ride. Great economy, loads of grunt and more comfortable than the C class.

I like the E Class, very nice inside, but not owned one

New S class: - I'm not yet taken by the looks, and am doing all I can to refuse all suggestions that I borrow one for the day.

Its an excellent car. Not been in a Lexus or a 7 series to compare though.

My next car will either be a BMW 335d coupe, or I may even push the boat out and go for an SL500 as a present for my 40th birthday! Then I can be an old man driving an old mans car

 

[glojo]

HOW DARE ANYONE DEFEND THEIR PREFERRED MARQUE. Forums are a place to slag off a specific brand of motor vehicle and anyone that defends such an unreliable, overpriced, badly built, heap of junk should be put up against a wall and fed to the magpies.

Even the most dyed in the wool supporter of Mercedes-Benz must be fed up with the hundreds of posts on this forum submitted by owners of new vehicles that are complaining that their vehicle is either breaking down, unreliable or suffering from shoddy workmanship.

John

 

[grober]

J D Power Survey 1970

Looking at the tables I cant help putting a historical slant on things. Car design has improved beyond recognition over the years, but I cant help wondering if there had been a J D power survey around 1970 how would things have looked?

My guess is that Mercedes would have been at the top of the table together with Daimler Rover and Jaguar. The other German manufacturers were just beginning to flex their muscles, Audi and BMW were just beginning to leave their funny little quirky post war cars behind. VW were still pumping out Hitlers answer to the masses. Ironically the Japanese car industry was regarded back then as a bit of a joke but look at them now. Skoda was hardly worth mentioning. The Italians and French saloon cars were regarded as having design flair but fundamentally unreliable so nothing much changes there. Whats missing of course are the British companies Standard/Triumph, Austin /Morris, MG Rootes Group Sunbeam,Hillman Humber etc. Ford and Vauxhall survive of course although Ford would have figured higher in the customer satisfaction stakes with their road going cars based on their competition successes. Whats happened to that today?? Leaves the Swedes SAAB and VOLVO with solidly built safe cars much as today.

So my conclusion is that some companies have survived by continuing to give their customers what they expect for their money.

Mercedes were always an expensive car to buy and run but customers got a car a "cut above" the rest of the market in DESIGN AND QUALITY back then.
While they maintain their position in the market in terms of design they have lost their reputation for reliability to the Japanese and Skoda who were regarded as a joke 30 years ago.

 

[glojo]

Looking at the tables I cant help putting a historical slant on things. Car design has improved beyond recognition over the years, but I cant help wondering if there had been a J D power survey around 1970 how would things have looked?

What a great thought and a good way of going off topic. In the 1970's I can recall the M5 opening here in Devon and being involved in a high speed run in a new Consul GT. We were in convoy with a big engined Jaguar and when this thirsty beast needed to refuel we left the M5 at Cullompton. When we stopped at a petrol station, there was a cough, splutter and a bang, followed by clouds of steam as the engine of the Jaguar 'melted'. Range Rovers used to devour gearboxes quicker than I could eat shredded wheat

In a 1970's JD Power I would rate Ford as being far more reliable than either Rover or Jaguar? The poor Rover would rust whilst you looked at it. Who can recall the Triumph 2.5 that used to spurt out neat petrol? Totally agree though that Mercedes-Benz would be right at the peak.

John

 

[Ted]

Triumph 2.5 that used to spurt out neat petrol?

Ah, the Triumph 2.5 PI
I remember it well!

And the Morris Minor/Marina with the bottom swivels that were basically just coarse threads, and would wear, allowing the front wheel to lose all sense of direction. It was common to see marinas & minors at the side of the road with one wheel pointing any direction but forward.

And yes, Mercedes would have been right at the top - for all of the reasons that they are famous for - reliability, luxury, advanced technology, comfort etc. I know, I worked on them from 1973 to 1979.
Interestingly, the mercedes mechanics were pretty poor, as they hardly ever had to do any fault finding/fixing, but the British Leyland mechanics were some of the best I ever knew.

 

[Dryce]

In a 1970's JD Power I would rate Ford as being far more reliable than either Rover or Jaguar?
John

Ford used to have Friday afternoon cars. I have recollections of the family Cortina requiring a lot of remedial attention. I used to know the names of bits of cars like 'differential' and 'ball joint' long before I knew what they actually meant because the car was always having them fixed.

I also think it's forgotten how much bad rust you used to see on cars three or four decades ago.

 

[glojo]

Ford used to have Friday afternoon cars. I have recollections of the family Cortina requiring a lot of remedial attention. I used to know the names of bits of cars like 'differential' and 'ball joint' long before I knew what they actually meant because the car was always having them fixed.

I also think it's forgotten how much bad rust you used to see on cars three or four decades ago.

Ford Anglia and the first Vauxhall Victor.

No doubt the odd Cortina was a duff one, but the Mk1 Lotus Cortina is a classic as is the Mk 2 Cortina 1600E. I will always remember with great effection the smoothness of the gearbox on both the 1600GT and the 'E'. I'm not suggesting for one minute they would compare with the 1970's Mercedes-Benz, but reliability wise they were in a different league to ANY comparable British built vehicle. We had a large mixed fleet and the Ford side was by far the most reliable. Don't forget in the early 70's ANY type of radio for a Mercedes was a cost option. How would JD Power have liked that?

Joohn