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Jaguar and Land Rover

Matt32AMG

Active Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2007
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667
Location
Dorset UK
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June 2002 SLK32///AMG. OCT 2007 CLK350 AMG Sport Convertible.
India's Tata Motors looks set to sign the long-awaited deal to buy Jaguar and Land Rover from Ford. So what's the consensus regarding these cars, specifically their future development, and, it has to be said, quality and image.

Worryingly if the business model remains true of Tata, they can turn what was a bad car into a truly horrible car if the City Rover is anything to go by. As things stand UK jobs are safe in the short term, but I suspect this will be an evaluation process by Tata to see where corners can be cut, labour costs driven down, and then transfer the entire manufacturing process to India. The result being a car that visually looks similar by name alone.

Anyone here feel the Government should’ve stepped in and bought the cars back off of Ford, (instead of the mega bucks for bailing out Northern Rock), thereby investing tax payers money into a tangible product, while kick starting a “British” car manufacturing industry, (there’s a novelty), secure jobs, and have something in this country we could be proud of again?

Thank god we kinda nearly kept Aston Martin, but only because there was someone out there with vision, (David Richards and his Kuwait's Investment Dar and Adeem Investment financing consortium).

How unlike it is for this this non-visionary, corrupt government to drop the ball again....errr NOT :(:rolleyes:

These Charlie's get in again, I'm definatley leaving the country. :(
 
My OPINION is this............

We are witnessing the early death throes of both names. Neither will survive another 10-15 years. Both will become a memory along with many other old names like Armstrong Siddley, Alvis and more recently TVR.
It was predicted many years ago that car production would eventually be by 5 or 6 main global players. Legislation would see to it that small companies would be unable to produce cars as costs would prohibit development and meet world requirements.
Land Rover and Jaguar are just 2 of many names that will dissappear over the next couple of decades.
 
Sorry Matt but given the choice between lending money to a bank or a car manufacturing company I know which one I would choose. :rolleyes:
My reason--British Leyland ---Rootes/Chrysler----Rover/MG---all ailing British car manufacturing companies propped up by government finance and doomed to eventual failure.
 
Sorry Matt but given the choice between lending money to a bank or a car manufacturing company I know which one I would choose. :rolleyes:
My reason--British Leyland ---Rootes/Chrysler----Rover/MG---all ailing British car manufacturing companies propped up by government finance and doomed to eventual failure.

Yup I have to say I can see your point, much as it pains me, :( but then we're talking about industry. Other car manufacturers can do it, and do it very well. We just have to look at how thery're doing it, and it might be painful at times, but in the same way as we're managing to keep our heads above water in the Aerospace Industry, it can work in the car industry too. And before the arguement about the British worker kicks off, gven a choice of work or no work, I know what I'd rather do if put in that position, and it wouldn't involve the DHSS. :( I have more self respect than to go and sign on for years on end, or for that matter a week.

But therein lies the root of the problem, there is a mind set in sectors throughout the UK, of people who expect something for nothing.
Perhaps if this country was a little less willing to hand out dosh for years on end to the freeloaders, maybe just maybe, we could start investing that money back into Industry to create the jobs that people seek and attain the associated standard of living that people aspire to, but through an honest days work, and have pride in what has been achieved.
 
My OPINION is this............

We are witnessing the early death throes of both names. Neither will survive another 10-15 years. Both will become a memory along with many other old names like Armstrong Siddley, Alvis and more recently TVR.
It was predicted many years ago that car production would eventually be by 5 or 6 main global players. Legislation would see to it that small companies would be unable to produce cars as costs would prohibit development and meet world requirements.
Land Rover and Jaguar are just 2 of many names that will dissappear over the next couple of decades.

Correct and such a shame to witness...
 
My OPINION is this............

We are witnessing the early death throes of both names. Neither will survive another 10-15 years. Both will become a memory along with many other old names like Armstrong Siddley, Alvis and more recently TVR.
It was predicted many years ago that car production would eventually be by 5 or 6 main global players. Legislation would see to it that small companies would be unable to produce cars as costs would prohibit development and meet world requirements.
Land Rover and Jaguar are just 2 of many names that will dissappear over the next couple of decades.

I'm not so sure. Tata, I don't think would have invested the amount of money they have to let it disappear. Armstrong Siddley and Alvis disappeared long ago, prior to the BL debacle and I also beleive that Tata will one of the global players in car manufacture, just my 2p
 
I'm not so sure. Tata, I don't think would have invested the amount of money they have to let it disappear. Armstrong Siddley and Alvis disappeared long ago, prior to the BL debacle and I also beleive that Tata will one of the global players in car manufacture, just my 2p

Maybe Tata will end up being one of those global players. Its anyones guess right now. However, I will stake a fat wedge of cash on the fact that both Jaguar and LR under their stewardship will sink to depths as yet unexperienced.
Neither will rise again like the Phoenix from the flames. I fear both will slowly shrink away forgotten like Wartburg, Jowett and Yugo and exist only as a distant memory.
The next Tata designed Jag will probably bear more than a passing resemblence to one of these - God forbid..................
http://www.austin-rover.co.uk/index.htm?hindambyf.htm
 
In 1928 you could buy a

A.B.C.-AC- Albert-Alfa Romeo-Alvis-Amilcar-Ansaldo- Armstrong Siddely-Arrol Astor- Astor-Aston Martin-Auburn-Austin.Autro Daimler-Autocrat-Ballot-Bayliss Thomas-Bean-Beadmore-Belsize-bentley-Benz-Berliet-
Bianchi-Bigan-Brocklebank-BSA-Bugatti-Buick-Cadilac- Calthorpe-Charron laycock-Chernardwalcker-Chevolet
-Chrysler-Citreon-Clyno-Crossley-Crouch-Daimler-Darracq-
De dion-Delage-Delaunay Belleville-Diatto-Donnet-Duont-Durant-E.H.P- Erskine-Essex-Excelsior-
Falcon knight-Fiat-F.A.S.T.-Farman-Ford-Frazer Nash-Galloway- GrahamPage-Gwynne-Hampton- H.E.
Hillman- Hispano Suiza-Hortsman Hotchkiss-Hudson-
Humber-Hupmobile-Invicta-Jowett-Kissel-Lagonda-
Lanchester-Lancia-La Salle- Lea francis-Lincon- Lorraine-
Lorraine Dietrich-Magnetic-Marmon-Mathis-Mercedes-MG-
Metallurgique-Minerva-Morgon- Morris- Napier- Nash- Nazaro- Newton Ceirno-Oakland-O.M.- Omega-
Overland_Packard-Paige- Panhard-Peugeot-Rernault- Rhode-Riley-Rochet schnieder-Rollan pilain-Rollin-
Rolls Royce-Rover-Salmson-Schneider-Senechal-Singer-
Sizair Berwick-S.P.A.- Spyker-Standard-Star- Steyr-
Studebaker-Stutz-Sunbeam-Swift-Talbot-Talbot Darracq-
Thomas-Triumph-Trojan-Vauxhall- Vernon Derby- Vosin-
Vulcan-Willys knight-Wolsely.

Pleas forgive me if the list is not complete as my memory is not what it was :)
 
Singer were nice little cars. Always liked them.
And the worlds very first hatchback car. The Austin A40 Farina.
 
Many inreresting comments thus far.

It's certainly a relfection of the growth of India's industrial might - they may simply buying the brand (given Tata's limited/poor brand image in Europe). I'm fairly sure some/much/all manufacturing will move to India but it may be European design/technology that remains. I've no sympathy for any worker who consciously prices him/herself out of a job and support ananachronistic trades unions living in cloud cuckoo land.

There's slim chance the brands will prosper - one of the disadvantages both have had has been the lack of investment. Perhaps Tata's financial base is such that they will invest and reverse export both brands to the emerging indistrial nations (e.g. India & China) thereby securing both brands' futures.

The words 'optimism' and 'naive' spring to mind though!....
 
Nothing wrong with being an optimist.

However, perhaps its best being a realist. That way you dont get dissapointed.
Jaguars XF is going to struggle to achieve good sales figures. Look beyond the rising polished alloy gear knob and a few other baubles and what have you got?
Yet ANOTHER parts bin mongrel based on old technology and design. Its not enough to warrant a price tag of £30K+. Sorry. It will fail dismally.
I have yet to see one OTR or know anyone who has had the bravery to buy or order one.
Do you?

But I HAVE seen fair numbers of W204's. A pointer to the future?
 
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Yup I have to say I can see your point, much as it pains me, :( but then we're talking about industry. Other car manufacturers can do it, and do it very well. We just have to look at how thery're doing it, and it might be painful at times, but in the same way as we're managing to keep our heads above water in the Aerospace Industry, it can work in the car industry too.

There is a big difference - the aerospace industry requires a highly skilled workforce working to very, very strict quality regimes which would not work in low-labour-cost countries. The auto industry used to be like that, but the workforce has become deskilled as automation took over in the drive during the last few decades to reduce the unit cost of manufacture (partly due to wage inflation in the west, partly due to increased cost of R&D).

Few had the foresight to see what would happen here - and no-one is going to accept a 90% wage cut in order to compete - so we effectively destroyed our long-term manufacturing base for short-term gain (in the pockets of shareholders and such).

This deal does one main thing for Tata - it buys them recognised global brands. The problem they have is that they have little experience in managing global consumer brands. The thing that will work against them in the short term is the publicity around this - how many "footballers" will want to be seen driving around in an "Indian" car, or how many aspiring managers/execs will ask themselves the same question (it's even more non-german...)?

As pointed out on the other thread on this topic, the brands need substantial amounts of capital invested in them. The brand stretch looks to be difficult to manage. There has to be something less obvious in the deal to make this work for Tata (cos no-one else was seriously interested).
 
Neither will rise again like the Phoenix from the flames. I fear both will slowly shrink away forgotten like Wartburg, Jowett and Yugo and exist only as a distant memory.

A fair comment, except that is should be remembered that these marques are already some other than they were.

Jaguar was originally swallowed up by the Ouroborus that was BL, and ceased to be 'Jaguar' at that point. Indeed, in the late seventies, Jaguars were appalingly built cars that Bill Lyons had nothing to do with, having retired in about 1972.

Landrover was originally just a brand of Rover Cars, and as such, was also consumed by BL in 67 (or thereabouts).

To decry the purchase of these two 'manufacturers' by Tata and to claim it will destroy their identities is a bit of a red herring, because that's already happened. How many times have you read about the 'parts-bin' approach used by Ford on these cars? BL were just the same.

I suppose it begs the question of what makes a car's 'identity'. At this point, I see no reason to assume that Tata will do any more damage to that mysterious quality than has already been done. If you're going to say that Jaguars (for instance) of today, or of the 90's, or the 80's represent the essence of 'Jaguarness', then you're wrong. They don't. They represent, at best, an evolution of it. And, I'm afraid it's evolution that drives the world on...

Incidentally, Yugo (or Zastava as it's properly known - Yugo was the name given to US-market cars) still exists.

Jowett actually 'realigned' their business into aircraft parts manufacture, and didn't go bust.

Wartburg is no more, though. Having said which, the factory is still used by Opel.

Tata itself has owned Tetley tea since about 2000. I'm not a tea drinker, but I am not aware that anyone has complained that Tetley has got worse, or been driven downmarket in the past eight years.


Right; the soap box is free now. Anyone want to borrow it?
 
Nothing wrong with being an optimist.

However, perhaps its best being a realist. That way you dont get dissapointed.
Jaguars XF is going to struggle to achieve good sales figures. Look beyond the rising polished alloy gear knob and a few other baubles and what have you got?
Yet ANOTHER parts bin mongrel based on old technology and design. Its not enough to warrant a price tag of £30K+. Sorry. It will fail dismally.
I have yet to see one OTR or know anyone who has had the bravery to buy or order one.
Do you?

But I HAVE seen fair numbers of W204's. A pointer to the future?

Good point on the XF - looks too suspiciously like a Mondeo to me. Mondeo's are in fact very good cars, but they're mainly sub-£20k!

How many original cars are there? Buy a Volvo - get a rebadged Ford, or Mazda. I can't tell the difference between most of the French cars and even a Bugatti Veyron has Audi parts!..........
 
Good point on the XF - looks too suspiciously like a Mondeo to me. Mondeo's are in fact very good cars, but they're mainly sub-£20k!

How many original cars are there? Buy a Volvo - get a rebadged Ford, or Mazda. I can't tell the difference between most of the French cars and even a Bugatti Veyron has Audi parts!..........

A Volvo is still a Volvo and built in Sweden
 
Old S40 based upon Mitsubishi Charisma (or vice-versa), new S40 based on Focus. New Ford small 4X4 a carbon copy of new Volvo XC60. Many Volvo models are actually build in Ghent, Belgium btw. I recall it's only V70 and poss S80 that are still manufactured/assembled in Sweden.

Nothing against Volvos - Imy Wife has my old one and they're generally damn good. Was just articulating the 'DNA' similarities.

Edit: Might be wrong about V70/S80, but they do build a small number in Sweden!
 
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Edit: Might be wrong about V70/S80, but they do build a small number in Sweden!

I think those are built in Sweden and Belgium. Sweden still has the big 4x4's (XC70, XC90)
 

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