Jaguar Land Rover.

[Dieselman]

Let me see if I've got this right.

Tata want the British government to guarantee loans so they can continue to make big gas guzzlers and off roaders for us to buy. The same government that is trying to tax big gas guzzlers and off roaders out of existance. Do they want us to buy them or not?

Sorry, you've got it wrong.

Tata want the British Taxpayer to subsidies their expensive UK manufacturing of unwanted cars while they setup a plant in India. Once it's up and running they will keep asking for subsidies or threaten closure.

Interestingly over 90% of ex Rover employees have jobs but have had to reduce their average earnings.
Doesn't it seem odd that a beleaguered industry is paying over the odds for it's workers.

 

[nick mercedes]

Let me see if I've got this right.

Tata want the British government to guarantee loans so they can continue to make big gas guzzlers and off roaders for us to buy. The same government that is trying to tax big gas guzzlers and off roaders out of existance. Do they want us to buy them or not?

The government need to keep talking up the economy.

While the likes of MFI and Woolworths can go to the wall, watching LR/Jaguar's plant and equipment being shipped out to India Rover style might be a bit of a vote loser this close to a possible election.

 

[nick mercedes]

Interestingly over 90% of ex Rover employees have jobs

"would you like fries with that?"

 

[Dieselman]

To be fair to LR all manufacturers are in the brown stuff, even Honda has had to bin its F1 team and close Swindon for 8 weeks in the new year.

Good luck to Longbridge, but I can't see any future for them to be honest.

LR Solihull might be the next big factory to bite the dust, as it's a prime residential site...

The sale of the remainder of the Longbridge site to developers is off due to the collapse of the housing market. I doubt Solihull would be sold off for that reason.

You forget new manufacturers like Honda, Toyota and Nissan now manufacture here. In addition the UK motor industry has recently had bumper years which cannot continue. This is an overdue correction.

Doesn't the Honda, Swindon closure happen to coincide with the new model Civic production from there.?

Isn't it that more cars are produced here now than in the British motor industry heyday.?

SAIC will flourish at Longbridge as they have a range of environmentally competative cars to sell, LR do not that's why they are sunk.

Honda have also canned the new NSX as the World just doesn't want cars like that for now.

 

[st13phil]

And why should we expect civil servants and MPs with little if any business experience to be good at choosing who to bail out and who to let go to the wall.

We shouldn't. But the fact is that HMG is in a bit of a blind panic now that it's dawned on them (somewhat belatedly) that a British economy that's wildly skewed towards the Finance and Service sectors is much deeper in the smelly brown stuff now the wheel's come off that wagon than other economies who rely on actually adding value to raw materials via manufacturing. Their panic is so great that seeing any more manufacturing going down the toilet (even if it is owned by Johnny Foreigner) is seen as something of a disaster.

It's just a pity that UK manufacturing wasn't supported when there was enough of it to actually carry UK plc through the hard times that the "Wizards of the Universe" have wrought upon us

 

[Dieselman]

It's just a pity that UK manufacturing wasn't supported when there was enough of it to actually carry UK plc through the hard times that the "Wizards of the Universe" have wrought upon us

I thought Maggie Thatcher was referred to as 'The Iron Lady' not Wonderwoman..

 

[st13phil]

I thought Maggie Thatcher was referred to as 'The Iron Lady' not Wonderwoman..

More like Russ Abbott's sidekick, "Blunderwoman" when it comes to manufacturing. I don't remember who was responsible for the quote in the 80's, but it was remarked at the time that she "did more damage to British industry than Goering's Luftwaffe".

 

[st4]

Sorry, you've got it wrong.

Tata want the British Taxpayer to subsidies their expensive UK manufacturing of unwanted cars while they setup a plant in India. Once it's up and running they will keep asking for subsidies or threaten closure.

.

Is this actually factually true or just in all liklihood.

JLR products don't have the perceived quality of german cars, and never will. I'd personally find it hard to buy one, too many horror stories.

It would work for Bentley to move production to Germany as people would still see the cars as quality products as most tend to think cars built in Germany are of a high quality. What would folk think of a premium car being built in India - how do you think it would be perceived?

Personally I'd find it hard to buy into a premium product that was built in India so for this perceived cache of Tatas new buys, I find it doubtful that in the medium term Tata would shift production over to India if they wish to continue with the Heritage of these 2 marques - that was the gist of the comments made by Tata himself in Autocar magazine some weeks back.

I agree that there are some JLR products which are dinosaurs, mainly Range Rovers and RRS but BMW chuck out heaps of SUV's-they're everywhere. I think its more to do with the brand than the cars IMHO. Jags XJ saloon is dated looking but underneath there there is a very modern and advanced car but it doesn't sell well. Jags XF is also pretty new and maybe that will catch on well. Certainly in all the press its nothing but praise for the new Jag.

 

[andyshore]

We shouldn't. But the fact is that HMG is in a bit of a blind panic now that it's dawned on them (somewhat belatedly) that a British economy that's wildly skewed towards the Finance and Service sectors is much deeper in the smelly brown stuff now the wheel's come off that wagon than other economies who rely on actually adding value to raw materials via manufacturing. Their panic is so great that seeing any more manufacturing going down the toilet (even if it is owned by Johnny Foreigner) is seen as something of a disaster.

It's just a pity that UK manufacturing wasn't supported when there was enough of it to actually carry UK plc through the hard times that the "Wizards of the Universe" have wrought upon us

Very true, engineering in general has been in recession in this country for the last 20 years, which has been the pivotal base for the export market in manufacturing.
It has been the important work by the producers that did hold the economy together, and were the foundations and building blocks of the future.

 

[janner]

I'm probably being thick but why do they need the money? Is it because they can't borrow it themselves or that no one is buying their cars? I thought it was because sales of new cars (especially unreliable 4x4s) had fallen off a cliff. Giving them money to continue making cars seems a bit silly.
Where are they going to park them all?

 

[Oli]

LR products may be recent releases but they are not wanted due to being dinosaurs. If that wasn't the case LR wouldn't be in trouble.

In what way are they dinosaurs?, the new Discovery and Range Rover pretty modern tech in them, terrain response for example, and in terms of off road ability the Range Rover still leads the way in the luxuary off road market, I would agree it's on road manners arn't quite up there with an X5 or Cayenne though, I think they have nicer interiors too, although sadly they do seem to wear,plus they do have build issues still.
Or did you mean outdated due to being big thirsty V8s?

 

[andy_k]

Or did you mean outdated due to being big thirsty V8s?

nothing wrong with big thirsty V8s

outdated due to crap reliability and poor build quality

 

[Birdman]

If HMG gives the 'local' manufacturers bailout loans it will likely be because the French, German & US industries are doing it too, not because HMG want to rescue unviable firms.

There'll be a contraction of global overcapacity and HMG presumably doesn't want the major part of European capacity shrinkage to be right here in the UK.

The problem is, does the UK have the financial means to carry these bailouts for as long as it takes? Once in, you have to stay at the table or lose everything you've staked.

I was surprised to hear the SMMT spokesman's relaxed spiel a week back that the industry only wanted government to pressure the banks back into restoring normal lending so it's members could take care of themselves. But in a matter of days their line morphed into a request for government loans. Which then became a general demand that the UK car industry be supported by government for as long as necessary, whatever it took.

Seems someone in the industry had been on the phone to the benighted fellow to explain if he didn't get the government to cough up the cash he and the SMMT was out of a job.

Did anyone else notice this rapid change of direction by their spokesman?

 

[Dryce]

More like Russ Abbott's sidekick, "Blunderwoman" when it comes to manufacturing. I don't remember who was responsible for the quote in the 80's, but it was remarked at the time that she "did more damage to British industry than Goering's Luftwaffe".

I think the rot was well set in from the 60s. The unions had a pretty destructive attitude. Things simply came to a head by the 80s. The country was on its knees by the mid to late seventies.

The real killer over the entire period? Education. People in this country disregard mathematics, science, and engineering from childhood onwards. And I think that the generation of politicians and civil servants making decisions now are themselves the result of this change. I'm shocked by the lack of 'real world' numeracy amongst adults these days - and that includes decision makers in business and staff in banks.

 

[Dryce]

I would agree it's on road manners arn't quite up there with an X5 or Cayenne though,

I'm trying hard to remember the last time I saw a X5 or Cayenne off tarmac (excluding the odd field where non-4wd cars were also parked).

The people I know who have RRs actually use them to plod about off tarmac on a regular basis.

OTOH the RRs also seem to like visiting the dealer service departments rather frequently for matters other than regular servicing.

 

[gary350]

Is this actually factually true or just in all liklihood.

JLR products don't have the perceived quality of german cars, and never will. I'd personally find it hard to buy one, too many horror stories.

It would work for Bentley to move production to Germany as people would still see the cars as quality products as most tend to think cars built in Germany are of a high quality. What would folk think of a premium car being built in India - how do you think it would be perceived?

Personally I'd find it hard to buy into a premium product that was built in India so for this perceived cache of Tatas new buys, I find it doubtful that in the medium term Tata would shift production over to India if they wish to continue with the Heritage of these 2 marques - that was the gist of the comments made by Tata himself in Autocar magazine some weeks back.

I agree that there are some JLR products which are dinosaurs, mainly Range Rovers and RRS but BMW chuck out heaps of SUV's-they're everywhere. I think its more to do with the brand than the cars IMHO. Jags XJ saloon is dated looking but underneath there there is a very modern and advanced car but it doesn't sell well. Jags XF is also pretty new and maybe that will catch on well. Certainly in all the press its nothing but praise for the new Jag.

I have driven German cars for the last 25 years the last 10 have been MBs so down to the nitty gritty, Jaguar have just come first in the USA JD power The XF which I have, out drives its german rivals and is the best car I have ever had,and the new XJ is going to be awesome, and wait for the new XK diesel, so forget about outdated cars get back to whether it worth giving them a loan, and remember the economic crisis has not really started yet MB, BMW will all feel the pinch. I have been careful not to mention Land Rover that has different problems.

gary

 

[st4]

I have driven German cars for the last 25 years the last 10 have been MBs so down to the nitty gritty, Jaguar have just come first in the USA JD power The XF which I have, out drives its german rivals and is the best car I have ever had,and the new XJ is going to be awesome, and wait for the new XK diesel, so forget about outdated cars get back to whether it worth giving them a loan, and remember the economic crisis has not really started yet MB, BMW will all feel the pinch. I have been careful not to mention Land Rover that has different problems.

gary

TBH the current XJ is a brilliant car, just the styling is aged.

BMW have felt the pinch, due to the amount of leasing it does it has a black hole in its finances where the cars it gets back after the leases are up, will be much less than they were estimated to be. They went to the gernman covernment for help. It was in autocar a few weeks back and due to the amount of leases and financial products BMW offer, it was elidgible for help.

 

[Oli]

nothing wrong with big thirsty V8s

outdated due to crap reliability and poor build quality

I agree with you completly and I've owned them and do like them as cars alot, they need to sort thier build quality out.

 

[Dryce]

The XF which I have, out drives its german rivals and is the best car I have ever had.

Tried one. It's good.

But if somebody offered me a brand new one against my aging E? No contest. The E stays.

 

[gary350]

Seems like tata are doing the business.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...ta-pumps-millions-into-Jaguar-Land-Rover.html.

gary