Jaguar and Land Rover

[MBManInKen]

We are not talking about jags in general just the new XF have you seen it or driven it, if not as I said go have a look then make your comment.

Yes, I have seen it and it is absolutely not my style (hint: the list of my current and past vehicles ).

 

[DaveK]

'Suppliers to Jaguar and Land Rover must not be complacent if they want to carry on working with their new owners, Birmingham business chiefs have warned.
Car giant Ford has sold its luxury UK- based brands to India's biggest vehicle maker, Tata, for $2.3bn (£1.15bn).

Jaguar and Land Rover employ several thousand workers in the West Midlands.

But the Birmingham Chamber of Commerce and Industry said Tata would want to deal with suppliers "who can compete with the rest of the world".


The one thing both Jaguar and Land Rover require now is stability where they are allowed to plan for the future
EEF West Midlands
"This means that suppliers to Jaguar and Land Rover, many of whom are located in the West Midlands, will need to develop their products," he adde'

Which in laymans terms means cut your prices or else. Can't see how that is going top improve the quality of the products.

 

[dsolds]

So does ANYONE know ANYBODY who has actually ordered an XF?

Lots of nice words and oohhs and aahhs, but has anybody put their money where their mouth is?

Personally, I dont even know where my nearest Jaguar dealer is.

Well, I know 2 people who have ordered XF's. I have to say having driven it that it is a VERY nice car indeed. It is not the parts bin mongrel which some have described. The common parts used are engines and transmissions predominantly, both of which are superb and proven units.

I drive an E500 estate 2003 Avntgarde which is also a damn nice car and my wife has a Jaguar S Type R. I know which I prefer as a driving machine, but, and this is the point, I shoot and I have dogs which means I NEED an estate car. Jaguar do not serve this market at present. The X type IS a parts bin mongrel which is nothing except plain nasty. It drives badly, is uncomfortable, thirsty beyond belief for such a small car and depreciates like the Austin Allegro did.

So, given that Jaguar refuse to serve the E class estate market I drive a mercedes. However, I have had many Jags over the years, good and bad (I think the XJ40 series was probably the worst car ever built) and I have had several Mercs. The legendary build quality that was Mercedes of years gone by is actually no more so it can no longer be considered to be better built than a modern Jag.

I suppose what I am saying is that to rubbish the Jaguar marque as a whole based on specific shortcomings (like the dreadful X type) is plain wrong. It also depends on who you are as to your own preference. For example, SL55 or XKR ? Same target market, different folks but neither could be considered to be the better of the two.

Same thing for the XJ and the S Class. One more like a nice jazz lounge inside and the other more like a gentlemen's club. Again, different folks prefer different things.

Then there's the performance arm, the R series. Imagine if you will the S class AMG as being the quietly confident businessman showing off his new Rolex at the bar whilst the XJR is the older gent quietly enjoying his pint in the corner of the pub. Different styles indeed but make no mistake, understated though it is, the big cat is still capable of giving Hans a bloody nose if he felt like it.

As for the XF styling, it isn't everyone's cup of tea (Tetley anyone) but it is the way cars are going. Take the newer BMW's. Love it or hate it styling but they're selling them whichever way you look at it. But, I am led to believe the XF will be available as an estate in the future. That might tempt me out of my E class.

Overall, Jaguar's big mistake was trying to enter the mass car market. They made more money when they only served the prestige customers. Rumour has it that the X type is about to be discontinued as Land Rover need the assembly track for their new model. Let's just hope that a replacement is not planned. On the up side, at least they never built a 4WD Range Rover competitor.

Merc's are great cars, so are Jags. For that matter, there's nothing wrong with the Audi pedigree (reference the Bugatti comment) as I had a Quattro in the 80's and Audi also own Lamborghini. BMW is a fine driving machine and I wouldn't say no to the big Alfa Romeo either. It just depends on who you are and your own personal preferences but we can only hope that the 2 marques survive and flourish. Life without these icons would be like stawberries without cream. Unthinkable.

 

[Flash]

This deal does one main thing for Tata - it buys them recognised global brands. The problem they have is that they have little experience in managing global consumer brands. The thing that will work against them in the short term is the publicity around this - how many "footballers" will want to be seen driving around in an "Indian" car, or how many aspiring managers/execs will ask themselves the same question (it's even more non-german...)?

As pointed out on the other thread on this topic, the brands need substantial amounts of capital invested in them. The brand stretch looks to be difficult to manage. There has to be something less obvious in the deal to make this work for Tata (cos no-one else was seriously interested).

But Fiat group own Ferrari and Ford used to own Jaguar but that never stopped the "footballers" from buying them as lets face it Fiat and Ford are just average car manufacturers.

When Damiler Benz merged with Chrsyler (hardly a luxury brand) that did not really affect MB sales or stop "footballers" from buying Mercs.

Generally speaking, Ford invested over $8billion in Jaguar and failed to capitalise on it hence the sale. Tata at least have secured all the UK jobs and are willing to bank role these two brands without laying off staff. There were offers from other buyers but the Union concluded that the best package for the British workers was from Tata.

 

[chriswt]

I personally feel it is all about personal opinions\taste\choice and would not consider anyone a 'snob' solely on the type of car they purchase. Yes a Mercedes has a certain presence, but am I a snob if I buy an old 124 or a 560?

I could walk into a garage tomorrow and buy a Bentley or Rolls Royce but they are not to my liking.

No, I disagree with you regarding folks being snobs simply because of the car they buy.

Regards
John the snob

John I think you are misunderstanding my definition of a snob!

When I talk about being a snob I'm not saying that it's snobbish to buy a German car, in fact BMW ownership is almost a common as you can get.

What I'm getting at is the snobbish attitude towards makes such as Ford, Vauxhall, Skoda etc etc where they are considered a lesser or poorer car.

Everyone is entitled to choose whatever car they want but I don't like the snobbery towards people who choose a car for ability over its badge.

 

[glojo]

Well, I know 2 people who have ordered XF's. I have to say having driven it that it is a VERY nice car indeed. It is not the parts bin mongrel which some have described. The common parts used are engines and transmissions predominantly, both of which are superb and proven units.

I spoke to a neighbour who once owned a very 'nice' top of the range V8 Jaguar saloon. The thing was two years old, had issues with the gearbox, was charged just over £300 to have a so called software upgrade and then instantly went to our Mercedes dealership where he part exchanged the thing for their S-class demonstrator. I asked him if he would consider a new Jaguar. We have not reached the 9pm water-shed so I will not post his reply, but suffice it to say he will not be gracing the Jaguar showrooms anytime this century.

I always take with a pinch of salt claims that people 'will' buy a certain type of car. Time will tell.

Regards
John

 

[Rose Chap]

I spoke to a neighbour who once owned a very 'nice' top of the range V8 Jaguar saloon. The thing was two years old, had issues with the gearbox, was charged just over £300 to have a so called software upgrade and then instantly went to our Mercedes dealership where he part exchanged the thing for their S-class demonstrator. I asked him if he would consider a new Jaguar. We have not reached the 9pm water-shed so I will not post his reply, but suffice it to say he will not be gracing the Jaguar showrooms anytime this century.

Whilst Jaguar may have lost a customer in the form of your neighbour, I wonder how many Mercedes lost with the many rusty W210s they sold? Anecdotally, a colleague of a friend has returned his W204 because of continuing issues. This doesn't make it a bad car.

My point is that it's always possible to find people unhappy with a particular marque or vehicle.

I agree that broadly your average modern Jaguar is not as techologically advanced as its German competition, but does that make the cars inferior?

The Jaguar brand is strong and definitely has value. If they made a mid sized coupe to rival the CLK with as much design flourish as the new XF, I'd certainly be tempted.

It's clear that some people here really, really, really dislike Jaguars...

 

[verytalldave]

I dont really really dislike Jaguars.
What annoys me is that they are charging £33K+ for a car which is presented and offered as a "new design" car when in truth its a rebodied old design. So in my opinion, it does make the car inferior. Certainly at that price.
Maybe if it was £25K then thats another story. Its ALWAYS is a matter of price.

 

[Rose Chap]

Dave,

Respectfully, platform sharing is common for motor manufacturers. We all know the CLS is based on the E Class yet the CLS costs lots more. Does that make the CLS inferior?

 

[gary350]

I dont really really dislike Jaguars.
What annoys me is that they are charging £33K+ for a car which is presented and offered as a "new design" car when in truth its a rebodied old design. So in my opinion, it does make the car inferior. Certainly at that price.
Maybe if it was £25K then thats another story. Its ALWAYS is a matter of price.

So you are not going to like the £60K+ V8 supercharged XF, I admit it does not look like a £60K car. Whats this rebodied design all about the XF looks nothing like any other Jag old or new.

gary

 

[verytalldave]

Another way to look at it is does it make the E Class superior?

You only have to glance for a fleeting millisecond at the CLS to see whay it costs more than an E Class. Its a work of art more than a car.
I love the CLS and given a large money pit would be my choice above almost all others.
The present E Class on the other hand is coming to the end of its life.

But I get your message and begrudingly admit you do have a valid point.

 

[grober]

Jaguar's fortunes are encapsulated by their flagship model the XJ series. While subject to major engineering changes under the skin the cars shape has changed little since the 1979 introduction of the Series 3! There was the "new model" in 94 with a complete line of new v8 engines in 97, a new all aluminium body in 2003 but still almost the same shape! As a last resort a diesel engined version in 2005. In that time Mercedes a fairly conservative manufacturer in terms of new models had 4 radical changes in body shape of the E class. In the end people decided they didn't want to pay £40,000 plus for a car that looked as if it was designed in the 70's. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_XJ The S class was guilty of the same thing. Retro styling doesn't work in this sector. Buyers want their cars to look new. The XF came too late it should have been here in 2003.

 

[Flash]

I never really have liked Jaguars and I know I will get probably get shot but I think Jaguars are a typical "old man's car" and very boring!

 

[verytalldave]

Thats certainly their present image. Its going to take alot more than one new(ish) model to shake that off.

 

[Benz in Brazil]

I've always thought absurd that a 'paragon' of 'Britishness' should be let get away, I do think the Gov should step in but they are never very good at maintaining a National industry. For this reason I think that's why Rolls-Royce, now in essence a BMW, Bentley, a VW etc!
Don't the French have a national motor industry and the Germans too? How well are they supported by their respective Governments?
I do know that Porsche is the world's most profitable car manufacturer and the product looks essentially the same, with lots of evloution...just like homo-sapiens themselves. Yes, the Cayenne is a breakaway product just as the land Rover was from Rover the Jeep from Willys etc.
Jaguars of the 70's were famed for their poor quality..and today? Based on Fords, parts-binmobiles, OK but, how many Benzes or Audis or Citroens are individually crafted?
Even the mega-luxury Maybach is based on an S-class, very much like the original 1920's Maybach which used a Mercedes chassis and proprietory engine.
Tata taking over Jag and LR could be a good thing, it could be a repetition of DaimlerChrysler's folly. Time will tell.

I must confess though I don't like the idea of an Indian-built Jag but how many of you drive a Brazilian or South-African built Mercedes-Benz? And I do tell you they exist but it's not mentioned on the builder's plate!

 

[imadoofus]

My local paper has today repeated reports from NYTimes and Reuters that Tata have committed to retain Jaguar's HQ is Coventry. Apparently, they have also agreed to pursue Jagaur's and LR's business plans to 2011.

 

[verytalldave]

My local paper has today repeated reports from NYTimes and Reuters that Tata have committed to retain Jaguar's HQ is Coventry. Apparently, they have also agreed to pursue Jagaur's and LR's business plans to 2011.

Thats only just over two and a half years if they mean 2nd January 2011. Not long.

 

[glojo]

Another way to look at it is does it make the E Class superior?

You only have to glance for a fleeting millisecond at the CLS to see whay it costs more than an E Class. Its a work of art more than a car.
I love the CLS and given a large money pit would be my choice above almost all others.
The present E Class on the other hand is coming to the end of its life.

But I get your message and begrudingly admit you do have a valid point.

Just before the launch of the CLS there were numerous forum members ranting about this vehicle saying how nice it was and they were definitely going to buy one. The praise was deafening, but most failed to buy this modernistic styled vehicle, perhaps this is what we are now hearing?

I think the Jaguar coupe can be a young man's car but can most young men afford to own one? (my nephew has one) This new saloon is possibly designed for the younger market and if this market has already type cast the vehicle then there is a huge marketing problem.

John

 

[Mr E]

Even in the more niche markets there is often a step change needed. I don't know much about Porsche's range in terms of the model numbers, etc, but the 911 has had a number of step-changes during the years while keeping th incremental change going as well. That's how most manufacturers in this market work (AM, Lamborghini, even Ferrari to some extent).

The problem that Jag have is that the heritage they trade on is tainted by poor products in the past. This is the kind of thing that happens to brands, and it ain't easy to fix. Looking at what they've done over the past few years also shows that they fundamentally don't know where in the market they want to be - and then seem to miss any sweet spot.

The real crux of what happens with these comes down to two things - Tata's experience in this market and why they bought them in the first place.

Taking the second one first...it's a huge leap from their current products to these two brands. You could argue that there is a market for LR in India, but Jaguar? Ford needed to shift the two, so they were bundled. There is also a mindset that slapping a badge on can elevate a brand - again can work in a new and "unsophisticated" market, but worldwide? Shifting the production doesn't seem to work either - from what I know these brands are predominantly single-line - to move would mean either stopping production or lining up a brand new set of kit. neither of which are that attractive.

The first one is the killer for me - how are they going to manage these brands with no experience in this market. No-one who knows Tata would think that would let the current management run things without intervention. You've had a big-publicity sale (how many know where their car is actually made) and basic consumer feedback tells you that "India is bad" when it comes to their experience (which is probably just through call centre contact) - and these negative connections needs to be overcome. Had Tata bought one of the big European or US players you could see the point.

Many industry experts are getting puzzled as they look at this deal in closer detail. The workers are OK as it gives them a bit of extra life - the stark reality was that these brands would have closed if Ford couldn't sell them - getting rid of PAG (of which only Volvo is left) was a prerequisite of the refinancing that Ford Corp did a couple of years back (based on losses, plus investment required to turn them round). The workers will also find that pensions are protected, and I expect that there are undertakings about the life of the plants, etc. Ford are happy as they've got $2 billion to make their next payments to the banks. Tata are happy - but no-one can see why...

 

[verytalldave]

Jaguars problems remind me somewhat of Vauxhall back in the late 50's when they were producing cars that looked OK but lasted about as long as a KitKat. The Cresta, Velox, Victor and many others rusted before your eyes. Literally. Later models like the Viva, Ventura and VX4/90 were just as bad. It wasnt until the Astra that they managed to put that segment of history behind them and move forward. A period of about 20 years. Nowadays Vauxhalls are a respected brand and many wont even remember that blip in their history.
Jaguar are now mid-blip within that 20 year period.
The next 10 years will see it sink or swim.