Jaguar and Land Rover

[verytalldave]

So does ANYONE know ANYBODY who has actually ordered an XF?

Lots of nice words and oohhs and aahhs, but has anybody put their money where their mouth is?

Personally, I dont even know where my nearest Jaguar dealer is.

 

[Mr E]

Tata itself has owned Tetley tea since about 2000. I'm not a tea drinker, but I am not aware that anyone has complained that Tetley has got worse, or been driven downmarket in the past eight years.

Not quite right - there's a joint venture between Tata and Tetley Group. Tata produce the tea which is sold only to Tetley Group (as one of their suppliers). TG retain the consumer brand knowledge in the various markets.

This actually demonstrates Tata's industrial strength - they can produce quality merchandise at a good price, but have proved over the years to be not so good at pushing into external markets. Hence the background to this JV.

Sorry to be such a pedant about this, but industrial and service globalisation is a topic I'm heavily enaged with at the moment (especially with a view to automotive OEMS and Tier 1/ Tier 2 suppliers).

 

[imadoofus]

Not quite right - there's a joint venture between Tata and Tetley Group...Sorry to be such a pedant about this.

No problem; I am always willing to be corrected.

Nevertheless, given Tata produce the tea itself, my comments about the quality of the product still stand.

PJ

 

[Dave Lewis]

the worlds very first hatchback car. The Austin A40 Farina.

*Pedant alert*: Not quite so: the original A40 had a bottom-hinged bootlid, and the rear screen stayed in place. The later countryman version had a split top- and bottom-hinged arrangement. So not really a hatchback. The Italian Innocenti version did however have a hatchback. The first ever real hatchback was the 1954 Citroen Commerciale, basically a Light Fifteen with a hatch.
I fear you are correct in your assessment of the future of Jaguar though.

 

[Mr E]

Nevertheless, given Tata produce the tea itself, my comments about the quality of the product still stand.

True - to a spec provided by the brand marketers and blenders in each country. They can certainly build and produce things, but their track record of end-to-end consumer product lifecycle is non-existent outside of the home country.

This is the big hurdle for all these companies - whether services, manufacturing, processing, etc - to move from being just providers to innovators. Japan managed to do it, the question is can India and China do likewise?

 

[television]

Old S40 based upon Mitsubishi Charisma (or vice-versa), new S40 based on Focus. New Ford small 4X4 a carbon copy of new Volvo XC60. Many Volvo models are actually build in Ghent, Belgium btw. I recall it's only V70 and poss S80 that are still manufactured/assembled in Sweden.

Nothing against Volvos - Imy Wife has my old one and they're generally damn good. Was just articulating the 'DNA' similarities.

Edit: Might be wrong about V70/S80, but they do build a small number in Sweden!

Yes the 70s are made there, I forgot all of the others
The v40 was focus platformed back when they stopped using the belgium plant

 

[glojo]

VW have tried to enter the luxury market and this marque has a very good reputation, how has that expedition fared? Tata have bought Jaguar along with Landrover, but once they take the manufacturing back to India then I fear the marque will die. Whilst it remains in the UK it can still keep the heritage that is in the name but in my opinion Jaguar is a dead man walking and although I have read Land-rover is still a popular 4x4, I don't see it and have the Japanese captured the workhorse 4x4 market?

I get really angry when I hear about:

"What will happen to the workers when Jaguar closes down?"

This is a political hot potato and we cannot avoid talking politics. If these factories are in government held constituencies then every type of help, aid and assistance will be offered and no doubt numerous alternatives will get subsidised rent or any other incentive to relocate industry into the effected area. If there is no government seat under threat then tough!! They will be on their own, but my guess is they will the assistance because of where these factories are located.

When we saw the one and only big factory shut here in South Devon with a loss of 5000 jobs, then tough, no help, no aid, no outside assistance and no interest. Why?????

Jaguar has had its opportunities and they have now gone.

John

 

[big x]

Not necessarily, Malcolm...

The C30, S40, V50, S60, V70 and S80 are built in Belgium, as will be the new XC60.



PJ

Just like LR/Jag use Ford's excellent chassis, engine and electronic technology and like all car makers source parts internationally including from the UK.
Some of the negative thinking from others in this thread is bonkers. All a car manufacturer does is assemble parts made largely by others. As long as the design and technology centre is based here the DNA of LR will remain British.

There are plenty of Mercedes owners running around with Indian made parts on their cars.Your Indie fits things like Eicher brake discs. This is an Indian company.I reckon ATE also source from the far east.

If you look at the history of car production there are just as many cars made here as there as always been. What was the 2007 total, 1.6 million ?

adam

 

[chriswt]

All this negativity towards the future of Jaguar and LR is sad and I for one wish them all the success in the future.

I don't think past British car company failures can be applied to Jaguar and LR. The ownership and management of these to firms needs to be kept as far away from British soil as possible to guarantee any chance of success.

As an industrial nation that was once the envy of the world we are now a nation that would have trouble organising a booze up in a non smoking brewery even with 24 hour licensing.

We are a very snobby and narrow minded buying public when I comes to cars and would rather own a poverty spec German car than employ any kind of common sense when choosing a car (and I include myself because even though I champion the brilliance of the Ford Mondeo and Focus I’d find it difficult to own one).

I would love to be a Jaguar owner one day and pray that Tata can turn Jaguars fortunes around and may be even instil a little pride back into the British motoring public for a manufacturer that is so quintessentially British.

 

[glojo]

Are we being snobs if we have different opinions? Are we not allowed to express our own thoughts without being type cast?

Talk is always cheap and no doubt lots of people like Jaguar's, but when push comes to shove, and we actually buy a new car, then how many people will put their hard earned cash where they express a liking for a car?

Skoda is about to release a luxury vehicle. How many people will buy it and are they snobs if they decide to remain with a marque of heritage?

John

 

[gary350]

So does ANYONE know ANYBODY who has actually ordered an XF?

Lots of nice words and oohhs and aahhs, but has anybody put their money where their mouth is?

Personally, I dont even know where my nearest Jaguar dealer is.

I am just about to for jun delivery, unless the jag rep does not get back to me today as promised, I hate that, reminds me of my MB dealer..

Mr Tony Blair has one more than likely a freebie.

There was 10,000 orders in for the XF pre launch day, lots in the USA.

Ratan N. Tata, the chairman of Tata Sons and Tata Motors, reiterated that strategy on Wednesday, saying the Tata Group “will endeavor to preserve and build on their heritage and competitiveness” of the two brands, while “keeping their identities intact.” No changes are expected to employment terms for the nearly 16,000 workers at Jaguar and Land Rover.

gary

 

[glojo]

Mr Tony Blair has one more than likely a freebie.

You are definitely not wrong there. Mercedes also claim huge big early sales on some of their more suspect models but how well are these models really selling. I liked the looks of this new models but I certainly would not buy one. I respect those that have ordered one and hopefully everything will work out. Has India made a long term promise of keeping these marques in the UK or is this a short term promise?

Regards
John

 

[gary350]

You are definitely not wrong there. Mercedes also claim huge big early sales on some of their more suspect models but how well are these models really selling. I liked the looks of this new models but I certainly would not buy one. I respect those that have ordered one and hopefully everything will work out. Has India made a long term promise of keeping these marques in the UK or is this a short term promise?

Regards
John

John, would you buy a Jaguar or Landrover made in India, goodness gracious me NO. In case anybody thinks I am a diehard Jag lover think again, I just love the new shape and it drives great, the new E will have to go a long way to beat it. I think that Jaguar has a better long term future than if it was still tied with Ford but only time will tell. Buying one now is a risk but a small one.

gary

 

[glojo]

John, would you buy a Jaguar or Landrover made in India, goodness gracious me NO. In case anybody thinks I am a diehard Jag lover think again, I just love the new shape and it drives great, the new E will have to go a long way to beat it. I think that Jaguar has a better long term future than if it was still tied with Ford but only time will tell. Buying one now is a risk but a small one.

gary

No I wouuld not buy a new Jaguar, especially now that its future is so uncertain.

No doubt there will be a few people making noises about how they would love to own a new Jaguar, or they would buy one if they had the cash etc, but this is merely talk and does not put food on the table.

I doubt the directors of this new company are fools and I doubt they intend loosing money, but are they concerned about the best interests of British employees, or are they out to make as much money as possible for their share holders?


John

 

[chriswt]

Are we being snobs if we have different opinions? Are we not allowed to express our own thoughts without being type cast?

John

Being a snob isn't about having different opinions, its more about dismissing some makes and models purely down to badge regardless of the ability of the car.

I wish more people would express their thoughts rather than buy a particular a in order to be type cast.

 

[glojo]

Being a snob isn't about having different opinions, its more about dismissing some makes and models purely down to badge regardless of the ability of the car.

I wish more people would express their thoughts rather than buy a particular a in order to be type cast.

I personally feel it is all about personal opinions\taste\choice and would not consider anyone a 'snob' solely on the type of car they purchase. Yes a Mercedes has a certain presence, but am I a snob if I buy an old 124 or a 560?

I could walk into a garage tomorrow and buy a Bentley or Rolls Royce but they are not to my liking.

No, I disagree with you regarding folks being snobs simply because of the car they buy.

Regards
John the snob

 

[gary350]

Being a snob isn't about having different opinions, its more about dismissing some makes and models purely down to badge regardless of the ability of the car.

I wish more people would express their thoughts rather than buy a particular a in order to be type cast.

I have been around long enough to understand that if you go onto any car forum praising another car then watch the diehards come out of the woodwork, but it is simple really go and have a look, take a drive, then make a comment (hands up those that have not seen the car in the flesh yet). The TATA takeover is another matter because no one really knows what will happen, but one thing is certain the Indians are shrewd business people they will not take these two vehicles types from Ford just to close them down. The Ford workers seem very happy thats a good sign.

gary

 

[MBManInKen]

but it is simple really go and have a look, take a drive, then make a comment

But you see, that has been the problem of Jaguar for so long. Many of their cars look (and looked) great. But getting in them and trying them out certainly has been a major disappointment for many people, including myself.

I remember before I got my V140 S500, I tried, amongst others, a Jag. A 12 cylinder no less, but what a disappointment. It was a car that was a decade behind the Mercedes in every aspect.

Same in the run up to my current car, again the Jag was a huge disappointment. Jaguar have struggled for a long time to make a car that could really compete with the s-class. I'm not convinced that this latest move to a new owner will be able to turn the tide.

 

[verytalldave]

When I purchased my C200K I also test drove both X and S class Jags.
One was too small and felt claustrophobic and the other was just not a good drivers car and felt unwieldy. Both had an air of being old designs and really uninspiring. It wasn't how I expected either to feel. The C200K in comparison was in another class altogether. It was nimble, had good feedback and it was plain that it had a superior build quality. Even though the C Class was alot more money for the same build year, I felt it was a much better car - and less likely to depreciate by the same degree.

 

[gary350]

But you see, that has been the problem of Jaguar for so long. Many of their cars look (and looked) great. But getting in them and trying them out certainly has been a major disappointment for many people, including myself.

I remember before I got my V140 S500, I tried, amongst others, a Jag. A 12 cylinder no less, but what a disappointment. It was a car that was a decade behind the Mercedes in every aspect.

Same in the run up to my current car, again the Jag was a huge disappointment. Jaguar have struggled for a long time to make a car that could really compete with the s-class. I'm not convinced that this latest move to a new owner will be able to turn the tide.

We are not talking about jags in general just the new XF have you seen it or driven it, if not as I said go have a look then make your comment.

gary