Mercedes reliability?!?

[motodrb]

Possibly very scary if a spring goes on the motorway, not only the obvious balance upset but the risk of a broken spring end instantly shredding a tyre at 70.

Imagine this happening at 120+ mph on the German Autobahn.

 

[KennyN]

Possibly very scary if a spring goes on the motorway, not only the obvious balance upset but the risk of a broken spring end instantly shredding a tyre at 70.

The design of the lower spring seat is all wrong , its diameter is smaller than the internal dia of the spring. Mine broke at the lower two coils and the entire spring fell right to the bottom of the strut putting the car almost on the deck , so low i could not even get the low profile jack under the car without a bit of a faff.

If that had happened on the motorway it could have been nasty plus if there was any degree of lock on the steering then the front wing would have been wrecked as the tyre must have been at least 50mm under the level of the wheel arch.

Both struts now off and i have arranged for two springs to be fitted at MB Grangemouth tomorrow morning while i wait.

Just disappointed that it broke on such a low mileage motor.

Kenny

 

[Adamccc]

Same, i do like mine a lot and will probably go to a W213 E63 but i have to admit this whole new car thing does lead a lot to be desired, the RS6 was a 2010 and my GTR a 2010 (40k on the clock) both had a plethora of problems, granted the RS6 was 89k when i got rid but i replaced all sorts so i dont think any more make or car is better than others.
Personally i'd rather replace suspension bushes and put up with silly rattles in the cabin then be throwing in gearboxes and dealing with rust as well as all its common issues(GTR) or oil coolers, aux rads, struts, plastic underpanneling and finally gearbox failure on the RS6.

So bottom line, cars just arent made the way they used to be, i think thats why resale on high end cars is so low because the expense in keeping them going is crazy.
Other thing you never see really is the MB/BMW/Audi owners most of them keep themselves to themselves and never ever see a forum so these issues are probably much wider spread but they just rock back to the dealer and pay the money/warranty and its lost in the system.

With the fast paced movement of technology and the need to make things faster and cheaper quality is going to suffer... manufacturers ram as much tech into cars they can now as thats the only way to gain an edge, with emissions limits ruining the power quest its mainly focused on features and driveablity... unfortunately new tech leads to unreliablity and no long term tests.
Its a shame but genuinely the first 3yrs are a test period its probably the only reason why you get a warranty.

I test drove the W213 before issues with mine and absolutely loved it - the interior (especially with those huge screens) and performance is on another level. I just can't deal with piss poor customer service and from my experience, poor reliability... Not that I'd be spunking £90k on a new car that'll depreciate like stone with anchors attached but it was a serious contender for picking up a 12-18 month one.

I think I'm going to grab a 335d daily and put cash in the bank for a while and maybe look at a weekend type like a R8 or F Type SVR ready for next summer.

 

[jimiE55]

It's my opinion that you can find examples of troubled cars from all manufacturers. Factor in modern electronics, & there are more things to wrong. That's before talk about the performance level of a car, then modding, tracking a car etc etc. I have spoken a few different Audi owners with major breakdowns. Does this make me think Audi are poor? No, you can find these examples for every brand. One of the reasons I chose my e55 was the strength of engine and gearbox for modding. I'm not sure the equivalent of it's day could cope with 700bhp (not mine) on a standard engine and gearbox.

 

[John]

One of the reasons I chose my e55 was the strength of engine and gearbox for modding. I'm not sure the equivalent of it's day could cope with 700bhp (not mine) on a standard engine and gearbox.

Same here.

I new damn well the SMG III in the E60 M5 was shyte and that was the only real contender (I couldn't stomach the ridiculous uplift in price on Alpina B5s which used regular slushies like the E55).

Paid dividends too.

I can't count on no fingers the number of issues I had with the engine and gearbox in that car - even when running around 600.

Limit kicks in at around 800BHP on the gearbox.

Incredible.

When I drove the E63 5.5, the gearbox felt a lot less strong to me and the changes were sloppy sometimes.

 

[FateSynchro]

Imagine this happening at 120+ mph on the German Autobahn.

Now that would be seriously scary, i dont think i'd enjoy that... especially as i've been there recently doing these speeds and some more.

The design of the lower spring seat is all wrong , its diameter is smaller than the internal dia of the spring. Mine broke at the lower two coils and the entire spring fell right to the bottom of the strut putting the car almost on the deck , so low i could not even get the low profile jack under the car without a bit of a faff.

If that had happened on the motorway it could have been nasty plus if there was any degree of lock on the steering then the front wing would have been wrecked as the tyre must have been at least 50mm under the level of the wheel arch.

Both struts now off and i have arranged for two springs to be fitted at MB Grangemouth tomorrow morning while i wait.

Just disappointed that it broke on such a low mileage motor.

Kenny

It is a shame, but i was thinking about this the other night after i'd wrote on here, its not actually 100% MB's fault.. or any car manufacturer for that matter.
I mean how many parts are made in house? and how many are shipped to other factories like Febi, Bosche, Pagid etc etc... these companies supply ball joints, electronic parts and loads of other stuff we dont even know about... the fact that this material is not how it used to be due to cheap manufacturing costs abroad and cheaper metals i think that has a lot to do with it.
The main mechanical parts of the car are very strong and these are solely MB in house, but i bet most of the suspension setup all comes from a 3rd party.

I test drove the W213 before issues with mine and absolutely loved it - the interior (especially with those huge screens) and performance is on another level. I just can't deal with piss poor customer service and from my experience, poor reliability... Not that I'd be spunking £90k on a new car that'll depreciate like stone with anchors attached but it was a serious contender for picking up a 12-18 month one.

I think I'm going to grab a 335d daily and put cash in the bank for a while and maybe look at a weekend type like a R8 or F Type SVR ready for next summer.

Agreed, i do love the W213 though, i mean it really is what i want next... i've done the GTR and had an R8 (granted only a v8) for two weeks and they just really werent good drivers cars, the R8 more so but the V8 ruined it, was too slow.
The GTR was no real fun, i mean it was extrodinary at how fast it was but it wasnt fun and the daily aspect of it was shocking.
No i do like the MB as much as i complain about silly things it is by far the best car i've owned to date (except my R32 GTR Skyline)

It's my opinion that you can find examples of troubled cars from all manufacturers. Factor in modern electronics, & there are more things to wrong. That's before talk about the performance level of a car, then modding, tracking a car etc etc. I have spoken a few different Audi owners with major breakdowns. Does this make me think Audi are poor? No, you can find these examples for every brand. One of the reasons I chose my e55 was the strength of engine and gearbox for modding. I'm not sure the equivalent of it's day could cope with 700bhp (not mine) on a standard engine and gearbox.

Exactly, i actually the main mechanicals to be amazing in these, and i have to admit but to me the 5.5 BiTurbo lump in the W212 is the best engine MB have made, its a true large displacement V8 5.5L and then they bolt on two fairly decent size ball bearing turbo's... i mean it doesnt really get much better then that.
Yes i know the M156 6.2 which my dad has in his E63 is a great engine and it is, for an n/a engine it really is sublime, but you have to wake it up to make it move and you just dont need to do that in the M157, the new 4.0 BiTurbo is just a smaller V8 to match with emissions, you'll never see engines like the 5.5 or the 5.0 V10 BiTurbo in the RS6.
Its such a shame really.

Same here.

I new damn well the SMG III in the E60 M5 was shyte and that was the only real contender (I couldn't stomach the ridiculous uplift in price on Alpina B5s which used regular slushies like the E55).

Paid dividends too.

I can't count on no fingers the number of issues I had with the engine and gearbox in that car - even when running around 600.

Limit kicks in at around 800BHP on the gearbox.

Incredible.

When I drove the E63 5.5, the gearbox felt a lot less strong to me and the changes were sloppy sometimes.

Having driven my dads E63 with the 7G and a torque converter vs the MCT 7g in my W212 i prefer the overall layout in the W211, it has a rev limiter, it doesnt auto change in manual mode it changes smoother and is more responsive.
Im not a big fan of the MCT box, i dont understand why they removed the Torque converter for a wet clutch assembly.
It really doesnt work that well, the gearchanges are sometimes sloppy in certain gears when its cold depening on throttle position in C mode, the gear changes overall in S and S+ have a time gap mapped into the clutch assembly so you get a thud and some movement in the car when you change, now thats great in a stock car because it feels like your using a sequential gearbox.
However thats where it all goes down hill, the box when mapped to higher torque figures needs the time gap between gears smoothing out, you plant it in C mode it changes super smooth, plant it in S or S+ and 2nd to 3rd is super violant, its why most people will have the box mapped lower on torque to avoid this issue.
Personally i wanna try and get the box mapped to make something of it and try to smooth this shift curve to allow for the use of more torque, also much less strain on the input shaft.
The auto changing in M mode and the lack of rev limiter is annoying but i guess fool proof.
Just feels like they made this truly scary brute that handles and drives so well, then really let things down with the gearbox.

 

[grober]

https://www.mbclub.co.uk/forums/2467061-post17.html

There are several other design issues concerning modern road springs touched on here.
http://pmmonline.co.uk/technical/coil-springs-fail/
Reducing weight
Reducing vehicle weight is one way of cutting fuel consumption and CO₂ emissions, so car manufacturers are challenging the design of every component in search of weight reduction. Mechanical components are now expected to weigh less and still do the job, so this has led to VMs specifying lighter,
more highly stressed springs.
and the phenomenon of side load spring techology which I have to confess I haven't come across before despite its widspread use in strut type suspensions.
http://pmmonline.co.uk/technical/coil-springs-fail/

http://pmmonline.co.uk/technical/coil-springs-fail/

 

[grober]

Sorry second link should be Side Load Coil Spring Technology - Part Info

 

[AlexM]

Having driven my dads E63 with the 7G and a torque converter vs the MCT 7g in my W212 i prefer the overall layout in the W211, it has a rev limiter, it doesnt auto change in manual mode it changes smoother and is more responsive.
Im not a big fan of the MCT box, i dont understand why they removed the Torque converter for a wet clutch assembly.
It really doesnt work that well, the gearchanges are sometimes sloppy in certain gears when its cold depening on throttle position in C mode, the gear changes overall in S and S+ have a time gap mapped into the clutch assembly so you get a thud and some movement in the car when you change, now thats great in a stock car because it feels like your using a sequential gearbox.
However thats where it all goes down hill, the box when mapped to higher torque figures needs the time gap between gears smoothing out, you plant it in C mode it changes super smooth, plant it in S or S+ and 2nd to 3rd is super violant, its why most people will have the box mapped lower on torque to avoid this issue.
Personally i wanna try and get the box mapped to make something of it and try to smooth this shift curve to allow for the use of more torque, also much less strain on the input shaft.
The auto changing in M mode and the lack of rev limiter is annoying but i guess fool proof.
Just feels like they made this truly scary brute that handles and drives so well, then really let things down with the gearbox.

The wet clutch assembly replaced the torque converter for two reasons: to enable stop/start (required for emissions regulations) and to reduce rotational inertia to speed up shifts.

I agree that it doesn't completely work in daily use - It's a shame because the autobox part of the transmission is really quite good. It is strong, has good shift times, and can block-downshift (i.e. doesn't have to go through each intermediate gear when downshifting). A good torque converter auto is maybe better suited to the less hard-edged W211?. Interesting to note your comments about shift quality in a tuned car being worse - the TCU talks to the ECU to get the desired torque output during shifts and mapping may be taking this out of the expected calibration window. Has anyone got capability to program the TCU?. I suspect once you're producing significanly more power than the 'S' model, the TCU map is getting more engine torque during shifts than it expects, hence the thump at shift. 'C' mode shifts are slower so the effect is less pronounced.

I've learnt to live the with the gearbox and drive it in the way it wants to be driven - at least I don't find myself thinking what is it up to now? why won't it upsift/downshift when I expect?. There are better solutions out there, although I suspect they all have their own peculiarities and pros and cons.

Regards
Alex

 

[John]

The wet clutch assembly replaced the torque converter for two reasons: to enable stop/start (required for emissions regulations)

They needed to enable stop/start but didn't need to use wet clutches to achieve it. The 7G+ manages it with a TC as that is what I have in my CL.

A good torque converter auto is maybe better suited to the less hard-edged W211?

Certainly agree!

Although it was default really considering DSG was about the best gearbox in standard road cars at the time.

I think the hardness of the E63 is one of the reasons I don't like it. Too much like a GT-R.

 

[FateSynchro]

The wet clutch assembly replaced the torque converter for two reasons: to enable stop/start (required for emissions regulations) and to reduce rotational inertia to speed up shifts.

I agree that it doesn't completely work in daily use - It's a shame because the autobox part of the transmission is really quite good. It is strong, has good shift times, and can block-downshift (i.e. doesn't have to go through each intermediate gear when downshifting). A good torque converter auto is maybe better suited to the less hard-edged W211?. Interesting to note your comments about shift quality in a tuned car being worse - the TCU talks to the ECU to get the desired torque output during shifts and mapping may be taking this out of the expected calibration window. Has anyone got capability to program the TCU?. I suspect once you're producing significanly more power than the 'S' model, the TCU map is getting more engine torque during shifts than it expects, hence the thump at shift. 'C' mode shifts are slower so the effect is less pronounced.

I've learnt to live the with the gearbox and drive it in the way it wants to be driven - at least I don't find myself thinking what is it up to now? why won't it upsift/downshift when I expect?. There are better solutions out there, although I suspect they all have their own peculiarities and pros and cons.

Regards
Alex

Alex,

Yes there is a few who will touch the TCU but as its such a niche market these tuners have really not bothered too much as at the moment no obd programming is available.
To flash the TCU it must be removed, which means ValveBody out and numerous hours of messing about if you make a mistake or change the values the wrong way.
So progress on that is slow... but i am working with someone so i'll update as and when.
I agree the TC is better suited to the W211, i think im more annoyed at the shift times and overall harshness of the changes... to be honest the gearbox arrangement with the wet clutch is actually quite good, i mean as you say in S+ or anything else it really is sublime smooth gearbox and it knows what you want it changes great when you get to the track etc etc.
But yes i have certainly noticed that in C mode the shifts when flat out using the kick down and WOT gear changes are notably smoother, also further up the rev range they are smoother as the torque curve drops off.... the main killer really is any sort of mid range gear change etc.
As you say you learn to drive it to its best, its not really a big fall down of the car im probably moaning too much, i just enjoy using the paddles sometimes and get frustrated when its so delayed that you either get too close to the limiter or you change too soon which gives a "thud" through the gears because you've tried to anticipate the change too early.

I think your right thought, if the TCU could be optimised i think you could easily improve on the shift times and equally modify torque reduction on flat shifts to allow for a smoother up change when not in C.

They needed to enable stop/start but didn't need to use wet clutches to achieve it. The 7G+ manages it with a TC as that is what I have in my CL.



Certainly agree!

Although it was default really considering DSG was about the best gearbox in standard road cars at the time.

I think the hardness of the E63 is one of the reasons I don't like it. Too much like a GT-R.

I disagree completely on the hardness of the E63, comparing to a GTR (which i owned before getting the 63) that was a dog of a car for anything other than driving it hard on a track.
i mean the gearbox is great but overall its just not something i found was a worthwhile car to own... comparing the E63 and the GTR is apples and oranges, two totally differnt sectors.
I feel my 63 would give a stock/mid tuned GTR a very good run around a reasonable track

 

[Peter DLM]

A (presumably) standard GTR was getting in my way around Mallory Park, fairly evenly matched around the bends but the E63 was pushing it down the straights easily, GTR was better on the brakes though.

I think I gave my E63 a fairly hard time but it never missed a beat mechanically for 2 years. The only dealer visit outside servicing was when the Eurotunnel confused the satnav to a point where it needed replacing.

 

[ph47mf]

Speaking from experience, my facelift E220D is so far very reliable. Between my friends they own CLS350d, 2015 A class, C63 507, 2014 E220 convertible, all been trouble free as far as I know.

 

[ash-cls]

Alex,



I disagree completely on the hardness of the E63, comparing to a GTR (which i owned before getting the 63) that was a dog of a car for anything other than driving it hard on a track.
i mean the gearbox is great but overall its just not something i found was a worthwhile car to own... comparing the E63 and the GTR is apples and oranges, two totally differnt sectors.
I feel my 63 would give a stock/mid tuned GTR a very good run around a reasonable track

I have just moved from cls 63 to 09 GTR (stage 4), you cant compare these cars.
The AMG is a bit of a bus -albeit a very comfortable one. I wanted something overtly sporty as a weekend car hence the change
The AMG is hands down better a daily driver but I don't need that (at the moment :bannana

 

[FateSynchro]

I have just moved from cls 63 to 09 GTR (stage 4), you cant compare these cars.
The AMG is a bit of a bus -albeit a very comfortable one. I wanted something overtly sporty as a weekend car hence the change
The AMG is hands down better a daily driver but I don't need that (at the moment :bannana

I just found my GTR really boring and EXPENSIVE to do ANYTHING with, i mean after 650bhp everything becomes mental money.
I had a forged motor in mine, but gave up after that as it you were spending 10k here and 15k on a gearbox, etc etc.
I'd be very careful on a 09 GTR, the early CBA boxes are utter chocolate.. dont do no launches.
If its stock then get it in for a map and have the latest LC software put on, its mucher easier on the box.
I also found the sound system and the overall comfort to be pretty rubbish, the Merc just eats it in all aspects.. and now with these tyres i honestly think unless doing full blown lauches that i'd easy take one in a 30mph rolling race etc.
The only place the GTR shines is its intial launch.. but its so hard on the gearbox, the input shaft takes something like 100000ib/ft hence why they usually snap on modded cars.
The CBA boxes also suffer from circlip issues and a few other common things... if you already know then im sorry, if not then drop me a PM.

Also on weight... the GTR is nearly two tonne... my E63 is about the same weight as the GTR was, there is literally a 100kg's in it.
So a person.

 

[ash-cls]

Synchro,
I do understand where you are coming from.
Its an individual decision, this morning I drove to work and the GTR felt totally alive -rattles and bangs and noise.
We just love it to bits as want this kind of experience.
My CLS 63 felt broken after the test drive in the GTR.
I have the Full Milltek system and the noise is just incredible even after a V8 with resonator and rear cat delete.

I'm happy to lavish money on it, if it needs gearbox update then so be it. It already has bellhousing and solenoid clip mods from previous owner

I lived under the M156 headbolt cloud for 3 years and have to say that all cars have their issues.
Mine had a bit of a noisy RH valvetrain which again is another common issue
I had the airmatic pump and the control unit for the 7G box replaced during my time with the car.
I would happily recommend AMG products to anyone and everyone but have found a different and more focused experience. Will now be stuck for a replacement as I have already experienced 911s, AMGs

 

[FateSynchro]

Synchro,
I do understand where you are coming from.
Its an individual decision, this morning I drove to work and the GTR felt totally alive -rattles and bangs and noise.
We just love it to bits as want this kind of experience.
My CLS 63 felt broken after the test drive in the GTR.
I have the Full Milltek system and the noise is just incredible even after a V8 with resonator and rear cat delete.

I'm happy to lavish money on it, if it needs gearbox update then so be it. It already has bellhousing and solenoid clip mods from previous owner

I lived under the M156 headbolt cloud for 3 years and have to say that all cars have their issues.
Mine had a bit of a noisy RH valvetrain which again is another common issue
I had the airmatic pump and the control unit for the 7G box replaced during my time with the car.
I would happily recommend AMG products to anyone and everyone but have found a different and more focused experience. Will now be stuck for a replacement as I have already experienced 911s, AMGs

Oh im so sorry, i did not mean that to come over that i was bashing the GTR or having digs at you, im glad you like it, i genuinely liked it at the time, i owned it for 3 months and put 15k miles on it in that time, it was 680bhp and had a forged motor, i had R888's and a 410mm brake upgrade i also got the sound upgrade from R35 Audio.
But after 3 months it suddenly hit me like a brick wall, that its just too damn expensive to modify, your looking at nearly 10,000 for a 650bhp tune, yet you can get 570bhp from pretty much just some downpipes and a map.

The cars are mental expensive to make super fast, i respect the GTR so heavily.. its a 10yr old design was released in 07 in Japan and still will lap the ring faster than almost any other car.
And it was 60k brand new, that is incredible!

So i did have a honeymoon perioud with it, but once it wore off and the gearbox started having random issues, i changed all the fluids and did quite a few bits myself.
But at the end of it all i decided it just wasnt liveable and it just wasnt all the comfy.
The noise factor of the GTR (the gearbox rattle and mechnical noises) are great but trust me after trying to manuever it around towns and tight spaces it just gets cumbersome and weighty and the auto shift logic is garbage.... it has you in 6th at like 20mph.
i'd probably have another one down the line when i could really afford to push over the 700/800bhp mark but i'd HAVE to get a facelift MY11+ as the interior on the CBA cars is just very poor in real terms.
I hope you enjoy it and make sure you get some track action, just watch your gearbox temps anything over 110degrees you must change the box oil.

Also i found the Motul DCTF fluid to be much rougher when shifting from cold, using the Pentazoin FFL Race fluid it was much smoother, i'd also use Motul 75-140 in the diff as it binds less (from cold) with that.
Lastly if you can afford it invest in a gearbox build from the usual places, Litchfield or SVM.
It really is the soft spot on the GTR, there is a lot of fail point on the box, circlips are just the beginning.
Has it had the piston caps fitted too? and what power she running? if its been mapped already it'll be on either LC4 or LC5.. do you have a COBB unit with her? or ECTune disk?

 

[ash-cls]

Hi Synchro
its running stage 4.25 but mapped to 1 bar only with hybrid turbos estimating 600-650 bhp, so its running relatively safe --lets see

I never thought I would have car that would be head and shoulders more thirsty than my CLS - I averaged 18mpg in 3 years and now im averaging 10mpg on the same route/drive

My son drove the SL63 at Brooklands recently and said the new TT engines were absolute torque monsters compared to the M156. He then said my GTR felt similar but a bit more top end pull.

What do you think? Also where do you go from E63? AMG-GTS/R?
I cant afford Ferrari/Lambo/McLaren as I would need to upgrade my house to pull that off.
I drove a 997 GT2 and that was scary but I cant fit my sons in the back (they are 16 and 21) and want to come on every journey!

 

[Adamccc]

Hi Synchro
Also where do you go from E63? AMG-GTS/R?
I cant afford Ferrari/Lambo/McLaren as I would need to upgrade my house to pull that off.
I drove a 997 GT2 and that was scary but I cant fit my sons in the back (they are 16 and 21) and want to come on every journey!

As a step up you really have to split off into two routes (and spend a good amount more)

- If want something more shouty and supercar-esque with the power then the new R8's or maybe a first gen Mclaren 12C? (although the McLaren running costs would be daft, especially if anything were to break).

- Or keeping the same mental power with practicality you've probably got the new 4matic E63s (which as Chris Harris puts it "Makes a (C7) RS6 feel sluggish", the new M5 or RS6/7 Performance - Could possibly through a Porsche 997 Turbo S in there as it still has tiny back seats.

But bang for your buck, you aren't really going to get any other ~£40k car that will reach 700hp/1000nm+ from just a map. My main reason for mapping mine was to experience such a mental amount of power before trying to stop buying cars with more and more power as you simply can't do that without spending £100k's. I think I'll be going 335d estate next and save up for a weekend toy.

 

[ash-cls]

Hi Adam,
agree with what you are saying
I have 2 company vehicles for daily drive, so I can afford a weekend toy
I had the CLS for 3 years and did 15k miles and it allowed to me spread costs and keep depreciation to a minimum.
I got a good deal on trade in and the car didn't fall apart. I cant recommend it enough (Sub £20k 500bhp and reliable)

Do you think the E63/CLS/C class TT makes a great weekend car?
My CLS was good, loved the noise and subtle looks. but to be honestly I only remember the straight line performance and tunnel sounds.
I only went to North Wales once for a tour in 3 years and can only coming off roundabouts on A5/M54 and accelerating.

997 Turbo cant really seat 4 adults so GT3/GT2 for me is the ultimate in my realistic dream garage