Negotiating deals impossible??

[MikeInWimbledon]

It’s important to understand that the Government’s “generosity” on all company cars is in that they are NOT taking tax off us. They’re not really giving out cash. So your Escort, Mondeo, 320d or Ioniq 5 is being offered relatively tax free to encourage you to buy it “off the lads.” Which results in tax revenues on salaries, property, VAT on parts & servicing, taxes on profits etc etc

So the Brits do have a fancier car industry than most of Europe, bar Germany, but it does result in more employment all the way through.

 

[aofelix]

New registrations by year, S Class:
View attachment 164312

and EQS:
View attachment 164311

Both pretty similar then mate. I'm surprised they're so close. I would have thought the S-class would have 2-3x the number.

The sales numbers suggest they are fairly in line with each other.

It’s important to understand that the Government’s “generosity” on all company cars is in that they are NOT taking tax off us. They’re not really giving out cash. So your Escort, Mondeo, 320d or Ioniq 5 is being offered relatively tax free to encourage you to buy it “off the lads.” Which results in tax revenues on salaries, property, VAT on parts & servicing, taxes on profits etc etc

So the Brits do have a fancier car industry than most of Europe, bar Germany, but it does result in more employment all the way through.

I have no doubt it's not generosity. It's just encouraging businesses to leverage financial risk to keep the economy going. But at least there is a positive and incentive towards luxurious kit.

In other hobbies, such as watches & home cinema, there is NO help. I bought a high-end home cinema recently and there was no government incentive to help keep that industry moving.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

It’s brilliant that new cars can be sold like this because two owners down the line, I can typically buy a low mileage CL500, S500 or Cheapo E500 for £20k, use it for a year or three, and then sell it for more or less the same amount. Which is nice

I’ll have serviced it. Could be as much as £2k a year, including tyres, but it does feel a lot cheaper than £12k a year

 

[Skd884]

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/mercedes-has-reportedly-cancelled-entire-ev-platform

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Final point: the EQS, Beemer and Taycan are all great cars, in their own ways, but they are very different to drive and use.

Be sure to drive them to make sure that you like the ownership proposition. I haven’t considered a Seven since the legendary 750iL. I just don’t like the drive. I’ve had the S500 and would keep buying them, but I now have a whining noise from the near side seat saying “this is too big for london life.” The EQS IMHO looks like a flattened potato, so doesn’t appeal, and Taycans are too small to be luxury cars: they’re four seater 911’s without the noise. Great cars but can you use them? (My neighbour loves his but he’s an Empty Nester)

My opinions don’t matter. I’m just emphasising that your choices are very different, so make sure they fit your use case. I used to run a couple of large upmarket car fleets, and it was routine for a Salesman to want to return his Audi Quattro, 911, 650 or even 320i because didn’t like it a couple of months after getting it

 

[BTB 500]

Both pretty similar then mate. I'm surprised they're so close. I would have thought the S-class would have 2-3x the number.

The sales numbers suggest they are fairly in line with each other.

Historically the S Class sold in much higher numbers - new registrations by year again:



The big drop in 2020 is interesting - Covid maybe, but the numbers really recovered (even if you add the S and EQS registrations together from 2022 onward).

IMHO the S Class isn't the sort of car where you really need a 0-3 year old one to impress people ... a 6-10 year old car in immaculate condition and on an ageless plate would probably do just fine

In terms of total cars around as at end of Q2 2024 (taxed or SORNed) there were 1,400 EQS and over 32,000 S Class.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/mercedes-has-reportedly-cancelled-entire-ev-platform

For those who don’t click through: this means the EQS and EQE will continue for longer. It’s the work on the next Gen which has been cancelled while MB think it all out again.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Historically the S Class sold in much higher numbers - new registrations by year again:

View attachment 164314

The big drop in 2020 is interesting - Covid maybe, but the numbers really recovered (even if you add the S and EQS registrations together from 2022 onward).
IMHO the S Class isn't the sort of car where you really need a 0-3 year old one to impress people ... a 6-10 year old car in immaculate condition and on an ageless plate would probably do just fine
In terms of total cars around as at end of Q2 2024 (taxed or SORNed) there were 1,400 EQS and over 32,000 S Class.

We know exactly what happened here. Like BMW and Audi, MB shifted all its development efforts towards the flattened potato .... correction EQS & EQE product lines, because that was what they were told to do by the EU and UN. The expectation being that senior business, Government and Carriage trade would buy EQS and EQE. Which, to a degree, they did.

As regards the age of ownership thing is a red herring. it's always been the case that older S class are "just fine." Diplomats, Carriage trade and business buy new because they want new, especially if there's a new model or a facelift. (Look at demand doubling in 2006 and 2014.)

 

[BTB 500]

We know exactly what happened here. Like BMW and Audi, MB shifted all its development efforts towards the flattened potato .... correction EQS & EQE product lines, because that was what they were told to do by the EU and UN. The expectation being that senior business, Government and Carriage trade would buy EQS and EQE. Which, to a degree, they did.

As regards the age of ownership thing is a red herring. it's always been the case that older S class are "just fine." Diplomats, Carriage trade and business buy new because they want new, especially if there's a new model or a facelift. (Look at demand doubling in 2006 and 2014.)

But combined registrations for the W223 S Class and EQS from 2021 to 2023 were way down compared to the old W222 S Class alone in previous years ... despite being two new models?

 

[aofelix]

Historically the S Class sold in much higher numbers - new registrations by year again:

View attachment 164314

The big drop in 2020 is interesting - Covid maybe, but the numbers really recovered (even if you add the S and EQS registrations together from 2022 onward).

IMHO the S Class isn't the sort of car where you really need a 0-3 year old one to impress people ... a 6-10 year old car in immaculate condition and on an ageless plate would probably do just fine

In terms of total cars around as at end of Q2 2024 (taxed or SORNed) there were 1,400 EQS and over 32,000 S Class.

That's to be expected given how long the S-class has been around.
For me, sales figures comparatively on a year by year basis probably hold more importance to comparing demand.
Good point on the S-class being timeless. I agree - it looks very timeless. However I think its value drops the same as every other high-value luxury car.

Final point: the EQS, Beemer and Taycan are all great cars, in their own ways, but they are very different to drive and use.

Be sure to drive them to make sure that you like the ownership proposition. I haven’t considered a Seven since the legendary 750iL. I just don’t like the drive. I’ve had the S500 and would keep buying them, but I now have a whining noise from the near side seat saying “this is too big for london life.” The EQS IMHO looks like a flattened potato, so doesn’t appeal, and Taycans are too small to be luxury cars: they’re four seater 911’s without the noise. Great cars but can you use them? (My neighbour loves his but he’s an Empty Nester)

My opinions don’t matter. I’m just emphasising that your choices are very different, so make sure they fit your use case. I used to run a couple of large upmarket car fleets, and it was routine for a Salesman to want to return his Audi Quattro, 911, 650 or even 320i because didn’t like it a couple of months after getting it

It's on Business PCP. At the 3-4 year mark I will trade it in. My sister traded in her GLE or whatever she has and got £10k from it towards a new car. I can trade it in at any time (for another Mercedes).

The EQS in photos didn't appeal to me. In person the EQE did. The sheer size of it felt imposing like my sisters GLE but had the luxury of the other cars. Sadly I can't find a model with the badge and new grille but I imagine it will somewhat bridge the gap aesthetically. Still not perfect and I'd prefer a more aggressive nose but it is what it is. I did think of BMW and Audi but they aren't offering good financial packages. I'll be paying £1200-£1400 WITH a 15-20k deposit due to their interest. With the EQS, I'm paying £950-980 with £1k down.

For those who don’t click through: this means the EQS and EQE will continue for longer. It’s the work on the next Gen which has been cancelled while MB think it all out again.

Sadly yeah. Would be nice for them to just fuse the product lines. For me, it doesn't make a huge difference. Whether I get a new S-class or a new EQE or EQS, high-end luxury cars are only going to go in one direction and that's down.

I imagine Mercedes will be looking to try and fuse the two lines. I personally think there is a middle ground. I LOVE the timeless look of the S-class but it does feel dated sometimes. I think the EQS is a bit far away from what the prototype was.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

But combined registrations for the W223 S Class and EQS from 2021 to 2023 were way down compared to the old W222 S Class alone in previous years ... despite being two new models?

View attachment 164319

View attachment 164320

Obviously. As I said, the squashed potato is rubbish.

MB put their S class development effort into it, and underachieved.

Dictators, Bizzyness men and the Carriage Trade aren't buying it. Would you?

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

That's to be expected given how long the S-class has been around.
For me, sales figures comparatively on a year by year basis probably hold more importance to comparing demand.
Good point on the S-class being timeless. I agree - it looks very timeless. However I think its value drops the same as every other high-value luxury car.




It's on Business PCP. At the 3-4 year mark I will trade it in. My sister traded in her GLE or whatever she has and got £10k from it towards a new car. I can trade it in at any time (for another Mercedes).

The EQS in photos didn't appeal to me. In person the EQE did. The sheer size of it felt imposing like my sisters GLE but had the luxury of the other cars. Sadly I can't find a model with the badge and new grille but I imagine it will somewhat bridge the gap aesthetically. Still not perfect and I'd prefer a more aggressive nose but it is what it is. I did think of BMW and Audi but they aren't offering good financial packages. I'll be paying £1200-£1400 WITH a 15-20k deposit due to their interest. With the EQS, I'm paying £950-980 with £1k down.




Sadly yeah. Would be nice for them to just fuse the product lines. For me, it doesn't make a huge difference. Whether I get a new S-class or a new EQE or EQS, high-end luxury cars are only going to go in one direction and that's down.

I imagine Mercedes will be looking to try and fuse the two lines. I personally think there is a middle ground. I LOVE the timeless look of the S-class but it does feel dated sometimes. I think the EQS is a bit far away from what the prototype was.

I was just saying "Be sure to drive them to make sure that you like the ownership proposition."

If you've sat in it, used the dials and driven it 30 miles, you'll know if it's right for the next 36 months.

A lot of people buy on the basis of reviews, image, and what they think is the best spec and regret it within weeks.

 

[Darrell]

Obviously. As I said, the squashed potato is rubbish.

MB put their S class development effort into it, and underachieved.

Dictators, Bizzyness men and the Carriage Trade aren't buying it. Would you?

Pal of mine and his family own a firm called Crawfords of London. They love an S Class and I don’t think they’ve got many if any EQS’s.

 

[aofelix]

Obviously. As I said, the squashed potato is rubbish.

MB put their S class development effort into it, and underachieved.

Dictators, Bizzyness men and the Carriage Trade aren't buying it. Would you?

I really liked the look of it in person. Really reminded me of GLC and GLE. In photos I didn’t like it.

However not as regal or classy as S-class.


Buying new, tax benefits, most features - I think it’s hard to beat.

The shape is definitely divisive. But we all have different tastes aesthetic wise. I go to a lot of peoples houses and don’t think they look that great but it’s just my personal tastes.

 

[aofelix]

What’s surprised me the most is the sales number. The internet is such a dangerous place.

A bit of googling and watching YouTube videos made me think everyone in the world owns an eqs/ s class / taycan /911.

Nice to be brought back down to earth.

Hopefully Mercedes fuse the product lines soon and come up with a car which looks better though, I think the eqs looks fine.. good from certain angles.. but for the price it should be looking phenomenal.

Did you guys think the prototype looked good? I thought it was stunning

 

[Dryce]

So for the average person, they'll see a EQS on-sale in 3 years time for £50k and think its price has dropped by 50-55%. In reality, for the owner, it's depreciated by £20k for his pocket which is closer to 28% (20/70 *100).

The 'average' person is not likely to buy a 3 year old used car at £50K.

The car hasn't really depreciated by £20K. It has been highly subsidised by the tax payer which has offset the depreciation costs to the first buyer.

Whatever view - it's not really a healthy market where a S Class or Taycan is effectively being subsidised by the UK tax payer. The government should have capped the subsidy.

 

[aofelix]

The 'average' person is not likely to buy a 3 year old used car at £50K.

The car hasn't really depreciated by £20K. It has been highly subsidised by the tax payer which has offset the depreciation costs to the first buyer.

Whatever view - it's not really a healthy market where a S Class or Taycan is effectively being subsidised by the UK tax payer. The government should have capped the subsidy.

I’m guessing they have huge investments in EV, electronic infrastructure etc so long term will benefit the taxpayers and population

We would hope !

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

What’s surprised me the most is the sales number. The internet is such a dangerous place.
A bit of googling and watching YouTube videos made me think everyone in the world owns an eqs/ s class / taycan /911.

We're just the 1%

The other 99% of the world buy these things in big numbers. We're just a little old fashioned Socialist country. Most of these things go to Germany, the States and Asia.

If you're really into these things, it's a mind-blowing factory tour.

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[Dryce]

I’m guessing they have huge investments in EV, electronic infrastructure etc so long term will benefit the taxpayers and population

We would hope !

I think the government has made a massive mistake. basically business users are being heavily subsidised to buy high end cars - and the manufacturers are making their money off these subsidies while neglecting the lower market.

This is one of the reasons that the manufactures are not selling enough EVs to make the numbers required to meet the punitive regulations coming in and they need them softened.

It's not a new thing. With the past general subsidies manufacturers were importing smaller cars higher specs and leveraging their margins off the subsidies - and leaving the cheaper models for other markets.

Right now an expensive EV makes perfect sense for a business customer.

We'll see what happens. But at the moment ordinary unsubsidised customers don't seem to be buying into EVs and if the manufacturers get punished it's unlikely the costs won't mainly be passed on to those ordinary unsubsidised customers.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I think the government has made a massive mistake. basically business users are being heavily subsidised to buy high end cars - and the manufacturers are making their money off these subsidies while neglecting the lower market.

This is one of the reasons that the manufactures are not selling enough EVs to make the numbers required to meet the punitive regulations coming in and they need them softened.

It's not a new thing. With the past general subsidies manufacturers were importing smaller cars higher specs and leveraging their margins off the subsidies - and leaving the cheaper models for other markets.

Right now an expensive EV makes perfect sense for a business customer.

We'll see what happens. But at the moment ordinary unsubsidised customers don't seem to be buying into EVs and if the manufacturers get punished it's unlikely the costs won't mainly be passed on to those ordinary unsubsidised customers.

Count the number of EV's sold.

You're complaining that the government hasn't sales taxed EV's at point of sale, forgetting that Government is taxing the salesmen, engineers, administrators, buildings, energy, services, parts and maintenance.

It's a fair point that EV's aren't really changing the CO2 being thrown into the atmosphere, but our carefully selected MEP's obviously knew what they were doing when they set these rules up, in line with the UN policies of three decades ago, in response to global science.

The handfuls of luxury EV's are nothing compared to the bog standard EV's, and hybrids, running around on the UK's streets. Will technology "flow down" from the S class to the bog standard C class? Well, it certainly did over the last 50 years, why not now?