npuk
MB Enthusiast
In a pre-facelift to fit a NTG2.5 you need to replace dash panels so your car is like a post face lift c-class as done here: http://www.mbclub.co.uk/forums/electronics/79495-my-w203-faclifting-inc-new-comand-ntg-2-5-a.html
You wont be able to use the steering controls and dash display with the Comand NTG2.5 on a pre-facelift unless you also change the cluster to a post facelift one. Cluster is not a straight swap and will mean re-wiring and changing some sensors IIRC.
You wont be able to use the steering controls and dash display with the Comand NTG2.5 on a pre-facelift unless you also change the cluster to a post facelift one. Cluster is not a straight swap and will mean re-wiring and changing some sensors IIRC.
npuk
MB Enthusiast
Where are you based? Comand Europe in Surrey are Comand retrofit specialists and are highly recommended. Comand (Europe) Ltd - Great Deals on Mercedes Comand & Retrofitting Installations You dont have enough posts to PM so email them with you VIN number and they can advise you of the cost. [email protected]
http://www.mbclub.co.uk/forums/members-offers-traders/70117-comand-europe-ltd.html
If going the DIY route Comand Online sell the retrofit parts needed. Comand Online Ltd Dash panels you can get from your dealer or I guess a breaker.
NTG2.5 units can be found on ebay. The CLC ones are ahrder to find. You will need the unit from a CLC as the W203 didnt get the NTG2.5. There are two models, one with a single dvd and one with a 6 dvd changer built in. Also check how much Comand Online can supply a unit for.
http://www.mbclub.co.uk/forums/members-offers-traders/70117-comand-europe-ltd.html
If going the DIY route Comand Online sell the retrofit parts needed. Comand Online Ltd Dash panels you can get from your dealer or I guess a breaker.
NTG2.5 units can be found on ebay. The CLC ones are ahrder to find. You will need the unit from a CLC as the W203 didnt get the NTG2.5. There are two models, one with a single dvd and one with a 6 dvd changer built in. Also check how much Comand Online can supply a unit for.
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pos.k
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there is a lot of info available - but be careful sourcing the NTG 2.5 off ebay, as whilst the crowbar marks can be hidden, there is a more fundamental issue with the new anti-theft software upgrade.
there is a thread here on exactly this issue (but I don't know how to post the link
).
COMAND Online are well up to speed (as usual) on this.
there is a thread here on exactly this issue (but I don't know how to post the link
). COMAND Online are well up to speed (as usual) on this.
Thanks for the valuable info - I take it from various posts on this and other forums that a significant number of command units offered for sale on line may have been unethically acquired!
Q's Re the NTG2.5 does anyone know:-
- is the DVD reader, hard-drive and blue-tooth interface integral with the unit ?
- beyond fitting facelift instrument cluster, centre console + switchgear, what is the extent of the wiring mods needed to fit the 2.5 to a pre-facelift W2O3 (does anyone have a 'method statment' of the procedure and the parts needed) Would there be compatibility issues with the sound system - the one fitted seems to be a basic MB system + MB badged CD changer in the glovebox
Q's Re the NTG2.5 does anyone know:-
- is the DVD reader, hard-drive and blue-tooth interface integral with the unit ?
- beyond fitting facelift instrument cluster, centre console + switchgear, what is the extent of the wiring mods needed to fit the 2.5 to a pre-facelift W2O3 (does anyone have a 'method statment' of the procedure and the parts needed) Would there be compatibility issues with the sound system - the one fitted seems to be a basic MB system + MB badged CD changer in the glovebox
A-AvantGarde
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Yes it's all integratged. As mentioned in a previous post I beieve that there are two version, one is single DVD and the other has a 6 disc changer built in.
Sorry can't help on this one, although I know that any existing options such as CD changer and phone becoime redundant. There are a couple of other threads on here from two people that have done this to pre-facelift W203 and W209's. I'd also be keen to do this if the parts came in at the right price...
A-AvantGarde
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No, it never appeared as factory fit in the W203. The CLC is essentially a heavily facelifted 203 still so yes the dashboard / central console etc is essentially the same...
You'll need a facelift instrument cluster also for cluster display and steering wheel controls to work. The MOST systems communicate with the cluster differently to the D2B systems.
It *maybe* that clusters from just before the facelift can be made to work - they can on the SL for instance.
Richard
It *maybe* that clusters from just before the facelift can be made to work - they can on the SL for instance.
Richard
MOST and D2B are the two versions of fibre optic technology used for the audio system in Mercedes cars. D2B was phased out by 2005. MOST started appearing in 2001/2002 (on the E class)
The following items are on the audio fibre optic bus (if you have these options)
Digital amplifier (BOSE or Harmon Kardon or B&O)
Phone system
CD changer
Voice recognition
TV tuner
So as you have D2B none of those will function. But items 2,4 are inbuilt into NTG2.5 and item 3 can be. Also those items are not compatible between Hard Disk COMAND (with MOST) and the older DVD based MOST system.
Cheers
Richard
Thanks Richard
The extent of the audio system fitted is the 'standard' CD/radio unit and a MB CD changer in the glove box.
Does MOST describe the newer optical digital standard of the hardware (ie. NTG2.5 + facelift cluster) alone or is the fibre optic cable different as well?
The extent of the audio system fitted is the 'standard' CD/radio unit and a MB CD changer in the glove box.
Does MOST describe the newer optical digital standard of the hardware (ie. NTG2.5 + facelift cluster) alone or is the fibre optic cable different as well?
D2B and MOST are full specifications for the fibre interconnecting network - this includes hardware and the software and protocols run on it.
Mercedes switched from using D2B to MOST (like many many manafacturers did) around the times mentioned above. MOST was meant to operate faster and work better, but in reality they have both been used to provide identical services.
Audio-10, Audio-20, Audio-30, Audio-30-APS, COMAND2.0, COMAND2.5 (s/cl pre MY2003), COMAND2.0 MOPF (s/cl widescreen MY2003 system) are D2B systems.
Audio 20, Audio-50, DVD COMAND, Hard Disk COMAND are all MOST based.
Audio-5 is neither - it has no fibre optics.
NTG1, NTG2, etc are Mercedes internal names for the different systems. All NTGx systems are MOST - however the components are not all compatible with each other.
Many of the control units are same between NTG1 and NTG2, and between NTG3, NTG4 and NTG2.5 also, but they are not all compatible with each other.
The big "gotcha" when upgrading is that no NTG1/NTG2 components are compatible with NTG2.5
Apart from the issue with the fibre optics, there is the communications between the audio and the rest of the car (for cluster display, steering wheel buttons etc etc). The old D2B based technology uses different messages on the car's network than the MOST based system.
I hope that helps.
Richard
Mercedes switched from using D2B to MOST (like many many manafacturers did) around the times mentioned above. MOST was meant to operate faster and work better, but in reality they have both been used to provide identical services.
Audio-10, Audio-20, Audio-30, Audio-30-APS, COMAND2.0, COMAND2.5 (s/cl pre MY2003), COMAND2.0 MOPF (s/cl widescreen MY2003 system) are D2B systems.
Audio 20, Audio-50, DVD COMAND, Hard Disk COMAND are all MOST based.
Audio-5 is neither - it has no fibre optics.
NTG1, NTG2, etc are Mercedes internal names for the different systems. All NTGx systems are MOST - however the components are not all compatible with each other.
Many of the control units are same between NTG1 and NTG2, and between NTG3, NTG4 and NTG2.5 also, but they are not all compatible with each other.
The big "gotcha" when upgrading is that no NTG1/NTG2 components are compatible with NTG2.5
Apart from the issue with the fibre optics, there is the communications between the audio and the rest of the car (for cluster display, steering wheel buttons etc etc). The old D2B based technology uses different messages on the car's network than the MOST based system.
I hope that helps.
Richard
Thanks very much Richard - few more Qs if you would be good enough:-
Will a facelift W203 cluster only work with DVD Command 2.5 and not the later HD variant - i.e. due to different NTG standards?
Does enabling operation of steering wheel controls and full functioning of the facelift cluster display if retofitted to a pre facelift car - require replacement of the D2b bus with a MOST bus
Noting the age of my car, the CD changer will be D2b and therefore not compatible with an NTG2.5?
Was a stand-alone HK, BOSE or B&O amp an option on the W203 - I presume the 'standard' amp was built in to the radio/CD unit?
Will a facelift W203 cluster only work with DVD Command 2.5 and not the later HD variant - i.e. due to different NTG standards?
Does enabling operation of steering wheel controls and full functioning of the facelift cluster display if retofitted to a pre facelift car - require replacement of the D2b bus with a MOST bus
Noting the age of my car, the CD changer will be D2b and therefore not compatible with an NTG2.5?
Was a stand-alone HK, BOSE or B&O amp an option on the W203 - I presume the 'standard' amp was built in to the radio/CD unit?
On W203 (so including CLC)
COMAND 2.0 = CD based COMAND (D2B) pre MY2005
NTG2 = DVD COMAND (MOST) MY2005-MY2008 and a little bit of MY2009
NTG2.5 = Hard Disk COMAND starts just into MY2009
CLC is slightly "odd" in that NTG2.5 wasn't introduced at the start of MY2009 it took a few months longer.
The cluster does not connect via D2B or MOST but via the car's general network ("CAN") , but as I said before the software protocols are different between D2B and MOST cars. Both NTG2 and NTG2.5 are MOST so same cluster will work there. But your car is D2B so to go to NTG2 or NTG2.5 you will need a new cluster (I have not checked to see if late 04 clusters are switchable via Star diagnosis)
As your car is D2B no other audio electronics are compatible (this includes the CD changer).
NTG2.5 is not compatible with an external NTG1/NTG2 CD changer, phone, Harmon Kardon, BOSE (MOST version) or linguatronic ever.
If you want the CD changer on NTG2.5 you need to buy a head unit with one built in (in the case of NTG2.5 COMAND you get a DVD changer inside)
D2B BOSE was available on the W203 (pre MY05) and MOST Harmon Kardon post MY2005. (B&O only comes in the new SLS ..)
Richard
COMAND 2.0 = CD based COMAND (D2B) pre MY2005
NTG2 = DVD COMAND (MOST) MY2005-MY2008 and a little bit of MY2009
NTG2.5 = Hard Disk COMAND starts just into MY2009
CLC is slightly "odd" in that NTG2.5 wasn't introduced at the start of MY2009 it took a few months longer.
The cluster does not connect via D2B or MOST but via the car's general network ("CAN") , but as I said before the software protocols are different between D2B and MOST cars. Both NTG2 and NTG2.5 are MOST so same cluster will work there. But your car is D2B so to go to NTG2 or NTG2.5 you will need a new cluster (I have not checked to see if late 04 clusters are switchable via Star diagnosis)
As your car is D2B no other audio electronics are compatible (this includes the CD changer).
NTG2.5 is not compatible with an external NTG1/NTG2 CD changer, phone, Harmon Kardon, BOSE (MOST version) or linguatronic ever.
If you want the CD changer on NTG2.5 you need to buy a head unit with one built in (in the case of NTG2.5 COMAND you get a DVD changer inside)
D2B BOSE was available on the W203 (pre MY05) and MOST Harmon Kardon post MY2005. (B&O only comes in the new SLS ..)
Richard
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Just reading this as I want to do my pre face lift Vito.
I can see I have audio 10 fitted and multi function wheel.
These will not work with the NTG. 2.5.
If I change the cluster for a used one from a breakers, what happens to the odometer? can it be reset to the correct miles?
I can see I have audio 10 fitted and multi function wheel.
These will not work with the NTG. 2.5.
If I change the cluster for a used one from a breakers, what happens to the odometer? can it be reset to the correct miles?
Thanks again Richard
Subject to £ - I'm tempted to have a DIY go (last November I had £8k budget for a car - got the W203 Elegance saloon with FSH & 65K in VGC for £5k - so I have a few quid in hand) shopping list then:-
1. NTG 2.5 HD + facelift harness connectors + cage from a later CLC
2. Facelift UCP + facelift harness connector
3. Wood UCP trim (unless old one can be 'carved' to suit?)
4. Facelift, standard C/C panel + wood trim ( " )
5. Facelift cluster + facelift harness connector(s)
6. Optical cable to complete MOST loop
7. Any recoding costs
Subject to £ - I'm tempted to have a DIY go (last November I had £8k budget for a car - got the W203 Elegance saloon with FSH & 65K in VGC for £5k - so I have a few quid in hand) shopping list then:-
1. NTG 2.5 HD + facelift harness connectors + cage from a later CLC
2. Facelift UCP + facelift harness connector
3. Wood UCP trim (unless old one can be 'carved' to suit?)
4. Facelift, standard C/C panel + wood trim ( " )
5. Facelift cluster + facelift harness connector(s)
6. Optical cable to complete MOST loop
7. Any recoding costs
You don't need the loop, NTG2.5 just needs coding properly. You will need new wood trim.
This will help you alot with the wiring...
Comand Online Ltd :: Mercedes SatNav/COMAND :: COMAND Retrofit parts :: Current W169 A, W245 B, Sprinter, Vito, Viano :: A/B/C/CLC/VITO/VIANO Comand 2.0 to NTG2.5 wiring kit cars WITH phone
(Theres a different version for cars without phone (has a microphone) there also)
Good luck - take lots of photos !!!
Richard
This will help you alot with the wiring...
Comand Online Ltd :: Mercedes SatNav/COMAND :: COMAND Retrofit parts :: Current W169 A, W245 B, Sprinter, Vito, Viano :: A/B/C/CLC/VITO/VIANO Comand 2.0 to NTG2.5 wiring kit cars WITH phone
(Theres a different version for cars without phone (has a microphone) there also)
Good luck - take lots of photos !!!
Richard
