PPF on the car have you declared it with insurance? INSURANCE VOIDED

[Slartibartfast]

Suggesting that PPF in effect doubles the risk so doubling the premium strikes me as nonsense. Surely a more sensible approach would be for Insurers in the event of a damage claim to exclude the cost of it's removal and replacement, if they are that concerned about the cost. I suspect in most cases owners who have PPF fitted are far more careful with their cars so the premium should be reduced.

What may seem sensible to us, versus what insurance company risk department decide are sometimes entirely different. Computer says so.

 

[BTB 500]

Suggesting that PPF in effect doubles the risk so doubling the premium strikes me as nonsense. Surely a more sensible approach would be for Insurers in the event of a damage claim to exclude the cost of it's removal and replacement, if they are that concerned about the cost. I suspect in most cases owners who have PPF fitted are far more careful with their cars so the premium should be reduced.

Standard body panel repairs can be pretty accurately estimated when assessing a claim. PPF will certainly add extra costs, but more significantly a degree of uncertainty depending on the type and condition of the film and the skill of the person removing it. It's also unlikely that the repair centres typically used would have the skills to deal with PPF in house. Without a solid estimate it will be much more difficult for an insurer to decide whether to write a car off or not (for example) - I suspect this will be the main issue.

 

[Will]

Insurers make the policy rules, we can choose to accept these or not when taking out cover.

So long as everyone plays their part and is honest and accurate with the details there’s little scope for disappointment.

It’s not down to members of the public to use their discretion as to what needs to be declared or not, or to decide the level of risk. You don’t go into a bank or bookmakers and argue the interest rates or account terms, or odds for a sports bet etc. You can choose to accept or go elsewhere

 

[KennyN]

So long as everyone plays their part and is honest and accurate with the details there’s little scope for disappointment.

Which is fine if you know if a newly purchased vehicle has been modified in any way , most would have no idea unless any changes have been shown to them , my wife or kids for example wouldn`t know the difference between a camshaft or a calm day.

My Cayenne has had four previous owners , if the vehicle had been modified in its previous life (remap / wheels / spacers / brakes / exhaust / PPF ) should i potentially have my insurance withdrawn for something i genuinely had no knowledge of.

I wonder how many of the YouTubers cars that have been tuned / modded extensively have been declared to their insurance co.

What i do have an issue with is the inconsistences between insurance companies , i fitted wheel spacers to my BM - most companies said it was a no - no but Admiral said there were no issues fitting them , there is either an insurance issue with them - or not ???

K

 

[markjay]

Which is fine if you know if a newly purchased vehicle has been modified in any way , most would have no idea unless any changes have been shown to them , my wife or kids for example wouldn`t know the difference between a camshaft or a calm day.

My Cayenne has had four previous owners , if the vehicle had been modified in its previous life (remap / wheels / spacers / brakes / exhaust / PPF ) should i potentially have my insurance withdrawn for something i genuinely had no knowledge of.

I wonder how many of the YouTubers cars that have been tuned / modded extensively have been declared to their insurance co.

What i do have an issue with is the inconsistences between insurance companies , i fitted wheel spacers to my BM - most companies said it was a no - no but Admiral said there were no issues fitting them , there is either an insurance issue with them - or not ???

K

The insurer cannot and will not avoid paying out on a claim on the policy because of something that you honestly and reasonably could not have known.

However, once they become aware of it, they can and will void your policy going forward.

In other words, just because you didn't know of a mod (and obviously couldn't declare it) at the time of taking out the policy, the insurer isn't obliged to keep insuring you for the remains of the year once the mod has been discovered. They will then either up the premium, or void your cover from that point onwards (but you'll still be covered for any claims that occured before the cancellation date).

However, if the insurer can demonstrate that you knew about the mod and knew you needed to declare it but deliberately didn't, then they can avoid paying out on a claim (though this situation is rare) or chase you for any moneys they pay to third parties. In these circumstances, the insurer will say that since you held back pertinent information at the time of applying for cover, they were unable to correctly assess the risk, and therefore the premium quoted wasn't the right one for the policy. The policy will therefore be considered void as of the date of its inception, and the insurer will refund any premium payments that you've already made.

 

[Petrol Pete]

You can not just hit a panel that has PPF on it with a sander during repair without removing the film first. My guess is the insurance companies just go 'worst case scenario' ie: removal of PPF will F up the finish underneath it and the whole panel will need to be re sprayed.

The fact that this is probably not the case means nothing to them. Add to that the many extra hours of labour involved £££ .........

 

[MrGreedy]

Suggesting that PPF in effect doubles the risk so doubling the premium strikes me as nonsense. Surely a more sensible approach would be for Insurers in the event of a damage claim to exclude the cost of it's removal and replacement, if they are that concerned about the cost. I suspect in most cases owners who have PPF fitted are far more careful with their cars so the premium should be reduced.

The problem with exclude the costs of removal and refitting etc, what repair company is going to start work where they know they are going to have to chase the owner for work without any contract? They would need to agree the 'contract' with the insurer for the standard repair, and agree a contract with a private individual for costs involved in removing, then the costs with reinstating. What a pain in the bum.

In terms of doubling the risk (we mean cost), I don't know. There have been talks of £4k full PPF wraps. So as one example:

1.
Standard car and non-speciality paint, a minor prang/scuff with some very minor panel denting on two panels, could be £300 dent removal and sanding prep, £500 respray and finishing. £1k tops.

vs.

2.
Same damage, but can't match the aged PPF film.
£500 to remove.
Some addition paint damage from removal on another pane.
£450 sanding and prep.
£750 paint and finishing.
£4k new full car PPF.
Result well North of £5k.

I could imagine a risk (cost) assessment that says something like anything other than small localised PPF adds £4k or more above our standard repair.

On average we pay £2k on average per car repair to out in-house body shop where the public don't see our volume work rates.

PPF trebles or more our repair cost?

Of course, we could debate the rough costs above, but I suspect insurance repair cost is not the difference in e.g. £2k average repair and £2.1k average repair?

Thoughts?

 

[Petrol Pete]

The insurance companies have made up their minds about PPF . It is up to us to make up our minds whether it is worth the cost.

 

[Will]

Which is fine if you know if a newly purchased vehicle has been modified in any way , most would have no idea unless any changes have been shown to them , my wife or kids for example wouldn`t know the difference between a camshaft or a calm day.

My Cayenne has had four previous owners , if the vehicle had been modified in its previous life (remap / wheels / spacers / brakes / exhaust / PPF ) should i potentially have my insurance withdrawn for something i genuinely had no knowledge of.

I wonder how many of the YouTubers cars that have been tuned / modded extensively have been declared to their insurance co.

What i do have an issue with is the inconsistences between insurance companies , i fitted wheel spacers to my BM - most companies said it was a no - no but Admiral said there were no issues fitting them , there is either an insurance issue with them - or not ???

K

Totally understand what you’re saying, and for those who genuinely have no knowledge of a previous modification I would agree with you

But the majority of modifications on cars don’t turn up by accident, and there’s plenty of people who are happy to spend money and time in modifications but won’t spend 5/10 mins on the phone to their insurer or the potential extra £££ for having increased the risk/cost of the insurance policy.

I guess we all end up paying the shortfall in much the same way as uninsured drivers.

It’s fair to say the OP in this case didn’t know of the modification from the previous owner (would be difficult to miss), but didn’t think it needed declaring.

I would wager that there’s far more cases of modified cars whereby people know of the modifications, but don’t declare them rather than those who genuinely don’t realise their car has been modified at all (by a previous owner)

 

[Benz17]

Totally understand what you’re saying, and for those who genuinely have no knowledge of a previous modification I would agree with you

But the majority of modifications on cars don’t turn up by accident, and there’s plenty of people who are happy to spend money and time in modifications but won’t spend 5/10 mins on the phone to their insurer or the potential extra £££ for having increased the risk/cost of the insurance policy.

I guess we all end up paying the shortfall in much the same way as uninsured drivers.

It’s fair to say the OP in this case didn’t know of the modification from the previous owner (would be difficult to miss), but didn’t think it needed declaring.

I would wager that there’s far more cases of modified cars whereby people know of the modifications, but don’t declare them rather than those who genuinely don’t realise their car has been modified at all (by a previous owner)

OP did know, just that he didn’t apply the pppf, it was the previous owner, OP was told by the dealer at the time of purchase.

 

[Will]

OP did know, just that he didn’t apply the pppf, it was the previous owner, OP was told by the dealer at the time of purchase.

Sorry, typo!

 

[markjay]

Sorry, typo!

PPF? FFS!

 

[ALFAitalia]

Lots of posters on here seem to be forgetting that, like in many area of the legal and insurance World, "ignorance is no defence"......."I didn't know the speed limit had been reduced to 30 officer" is just the same....and equally likely to be successful. Even just washing the car (or even just running your hands over it) you can easily feel the difference between PPF and non PPF panels.

 

[DGAMG63S]

Lots of posters on here seem to be forgetting that, like in many area of the legal and insurance World, "ignorance is no defence"......."I didn't know the speed limit had been reduced to 30 officer" is just the same....and equally likely to be successful. Even just washing the car (or even just running your hands over it) you can easily feel the difference between PPF and non PPF panels.

Agreed. Also, you can feel and see “seams” or edges in virtually any installation. My mistake was not thinking that PPF was disclosable (given I’m taking extra care of the car). That’s why on realising this, reinsured the car correctly the same day. Note the words; it’s my mistake. I may not agree with the insurers view of PPF but that doesn’t alter my initial ignorance.

 

[markjay]

Lots of posters on here seem to be forgetting that, like in many area of the legal and insurance World, "ignorance is no defence"......."I didn't know the speed limit had been reduced to 30 officer" is just the same....and equally likely to be successful. Even just washing the car (or even just running your hands over it) you can easily feel the difference between PPF and non PPF panels.

In criminal law, ignorance of the law is indeed no defence, however not knowing that you have commited the act, is.

In your example, if the speedometer in your car is faulty, and it is showing 30mph while the car was doing 35mph, them you won't be convicted of speeding, simply because you couldn't have known that you are committing the act of speeding (as long as you can prove that the speedometer was faulty, and you didn't know about it).

That been said, insurance is a commercial matter covered under contract law, which is different to criminal law, and in addition it is also a regulated industry, and on top of that consumer protection laws apply, so the example from criminal law isn't necessarily relevant.

 

[oldguy57]

In criminal law, ignorance of the law is indeed no defence, however not knowing that you have commited the act, is.

In your example, if the speedometer in your car is faulty, and it is showing 30mph while the car was doing 35mph, them you won't be convicted of speeding, simply because you couldn't have known that you are committing the act of speeding (as long as you can prove that the speedometer was faulty, and you didn't know about it).

That been said, insurance is a commercial matter covered under contract law, which is different to criminal law, and in addition it is also a regulated industry, and on top of that consumer protection laws apply, so the example from criminal law isn't necessarily relevant.

This exactly. Big difference between contracts involving ordinary customers and commercial companies (where consumer law often has to intervene) and criminal law. Ignorance does not necessarily affect the former, as I frequently had to point out to Insurance companies. Sadly the current crop of Insurers seem to display total ignorance of insurance law, contract law and consumer law.

 

[oldguy57]

The problem with exclude the costs of removal and refitting etc, what repair company is going to start work where they know they are going to have to chase the owner for work without any contract? They would need to agree the 'contract' with the insurer for the standard repair, and agree a contract with a private individual for costs involved in removing, then the costs with reinstating. What a pain in the bum.

In terms of doubling the risk (we mean cost), I don't know. There have been talks of £4k full PPF wraps. So as one example:

1.
Standard car and non-speciality paint, a minor prang/scuff with some very minor panel denting on two panels, could be £300 dent removal and sanding prep, £500 respray and finishing. £1k tops.

vs.

2.
Same damage, but can't match the aged PPF film.
£500 to remove.
Some addition paint damage from removal on another pane.
£450 sanding and prep.
£750 paint and finishing.
£4k new full car PPF.
Result well North of £5k.

I could imagine a risk (cost) assessment that says something like anything other than small localised PPF adds £4k or more above our standard repair.

On average we pay £2k on average per car repair to out in-house body shop where the public don't see our volume work rates.

PPF trebles or more our repair cost?

Of course, we could debate the rough costs above, but I suspect insurance repair cost is not the difference in e.g. £2k average repair and £2.1k average repair?

Thoughts?

I get your point, but your costs do seem on the high side. I guess a relatively simple solution where high end cars are concerned would be a specific question at proposal whether PPF has been fitted ( in addition to the mods question) which would easily clarify the position. In the meantime as others have said declare any mod which you can possibly be aware of.

 

[BMole]

The OP has my sympathy and also my thanks for highlighting this issue, also thanks to those who've contributed. As a member of Jo Public, my understanding of modifications was changes post factory. This thread prompted me to read my policy documents carefully. I'm with Admiral and they define mods as anything different to "standard" specification, i.e. factory fitted optional equipment is a modification. Cue brown trouser moment the big AMG wheels and AMG bodykit are a bit of a give-away.

Like many I use comparison websites. Moneysupermarket says mods are changes from original specification - which is what I thought mods were. However GoCompare uses the same language as Admiral, changes to standard, i.e. basic spec. Without this thread I'd probably have not distinguished between original and standard thus risking being uninsured.

As others have mentioned, knowing what was an option on a used car is semi-impossible. But I'm not one to be defeated and more importantly uninsured, so used a VIN decoder, the owners manual, a 2010 catalogue found online and a 2009 pricelist from EBay (no 2010 available) and cross referenced everything to get a surprisingly long list of options. I'm probably in a handful of people who are mad enough to do this.

I was very concerned that specifying all the options would massively increase my already substantial premium. I needn't have worried - £12.86 premium increase plus £9.50 admin charge as I did it online.

But the issue remains. A lack of consistency online and between insurers, how to establish what features were options and in particular using the word modifications to include optional equipment. To give an extreme example - who would consider optional metallic paint as a modification ? Reliance on insurance companies to be reasonable in their interpretation isn't something I'm comfortable with.

 

[markjay]

The OP has my sympathy and also my thanks for highlighting this issue, also thanks to those who've contributed. As a member of Jo Public, my understanding of modifications was changes post factory. This thread prompted me to read my policy documents carefully. I'm with Admiral and they define mods as anything different to "standard" specification, i.e. factory fitted optional equipment is a modification. Cue brown trouser moment the big AMG wheels and AMG bodykit are a bit of a give-away.

Like many I use comparison websites. Moneysupermarket says mods are changes from original specification - which is what I thought mods were. However GoCompare uses the same language as Admiral, changes to standard, i.e. basic spec. Without this thread I'd probably have not distinguished between original and standard thus risking being uninsured.

As others have mentioned, knowing what was an option on a used car is semi-impossible. But I'm not one to be defeated and more importantly uninsured, so used a VIN decoder, the owners manual, a 2010 catalogue found online and a 2009 pricelist from EBay (no 2010 available) and cross referenced everything to get a surprisingly long list of options. I'm probably in a handful of people who are mad enough to do this.

I was very concerned that specifying all the options would massively increase my already substantial premium. I needn't have worried - £12.86 premium increase plus £9.50 admin charge as I did it online.

But the issue remains. A lack of consistency online and between insurers, how to establish what features were options and in particular using the word modifications to include optional equipment. To give an extreme example - who would consider optional metallic paint as a modification ? Reliance on insurance companies to be reasonable in their interpretation isn't something I'm comfortable with.

I think that the basic rules are the same:

- Anything that your car came with from the factory, isn't a mod.

- If you're not the first keeper, and you couldn't reasonably know that the car you bought has been modified, then the insurer will still honour any claim on the policy (but they may cancel it going forward).

It's a regulated industry, and you are also protected by consumer rights law.

Where the problem start is when you do have a mod to declare.... that's where each insurer seem to have their own ideas.

 

[BMole]

- Anything that your car came with from the factory, isn't a mod.

I don't generally disagree with what you're saying however this is the definition from my Admiral policy which is very specific:

Modifications Any changes to your vehicle's standard specification, including accessories and additional parts, optional extras and aftermarket alterations, trade related changes and parts.

The italics are mine. Vehicle pricelists clearly distinguish between items fitted as standard and optional.