Rear wheel drive in snow

[MainMan]

As has been said summer tyres are not very good in snow or ice or even at low temperatures. But some are better than others. A couple of years ago I had Bridgestone SO3s and the traction was almost zero - even the slightest incline caused wheel spin. This year I've got Vredestein Ultracs and they're a lot better. You still have to take it carefully but they actually do grip on several inches of snow. I guess it's down to the different compound with more silica in it.

 

[Alps]

Shude, i`ll see how much the tyres are for a set of kerbed AMG`s I have already!

thanks for the offer DophinTech!

 

[Satch]

Ive yet to find ANY 17" steel rims, as 17" is the minimum size i can put on the c36 because of the size of the caliper. If anyone does find a set, let me know! Also can you get snow tyres in 17"??

Would not get hung up on steel rims unless you expect to be using chains a lot, which can chew up alloys. And they are heavy. My 16 inch alloys with tyres weigh in at 21kg, in steel would be a damn sight more so anything bigger starts being a pain.

Modern "European" winter tyres are available up to V or even W rated although the lower and wider tyres mainly seem to come in H. Even so, that is good for 130mph so can be used for much more of the year than in ye olde days, when the first set I ever had bore dire warnings of an 130kph max and stank of hot rubber if you ran them in the dry on a motorway. Stick your details in here, specify winter tyres and see what pops up

http://ssl.delti.com/mytires/start.html

So if on a car for maybe 4/5 months of the year some decent rims are called for. I sourced some second hand alloys and had them refurbished here:

http://www.wheelrefurbishing.co.uk/index.htm

Did a proper job (i.e whole wheel stripped down to bare metal and refinished, not a bodge and paint job) fitted tyres I supplied and balanced them FOC. Good value, especially by comparison to some of the crappy "visiting" outfits who want a lot for very little.

 

[grober]

Yup my Sharan 4Motion is excellent, but the reality is that very few people in the UK are prepared to pay for this option. I've never seen another 4WD one on the road, that's why manufacturers don't bother selling them here. Most of the Japanese "full size" MPVs (Toyota, Mazda, Mitsubishi) are already manufactured in a RHD / 4WD version, but the only way to get them in the UK is as a personal import.

I feel that its a chicken and egg argument. I agree with you that in the past when 4x4 models of existing saloons were available they were not popular and didnt sell. The original 4matic w124 was plagued with reliability problems also and that didnt help. Since then many aspects of motoring (and the weather) have changed. Witness the relatively recent phenomenal popularity of 4x4 SUV's as people began to appreciate the security and stability of 4 wheel drive for driving in difficult weather. The technology has moved on also. The relative simplicity of the ETS system and its integration with the ABS and ESR systems in the M class shows its possible to have modern 4x4 systems without resorting to complex extra mechanical locking differentials etc. Mercedes now offer so many models in so many different specifications I find it hard to believe they couldn't engineer a RHD 4matic saloon/estate. A true test of today's demand for mercedes 4x4 SALOONS/ESTATES can really only be validated if these existing 4 matic models were re-engineered for RHD and marketed again in the UK. Otherwise the statement "very few people in the UK are prepared to pay for this option" becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Nobody is going to buy one if there are none for sale! If you see what I mean

 

[Shude]

Otherwise the statement "very few people in the UK are prepared to pay for this option" becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Nobody is going to buy one if there are none for sale! If you see what I mean

It is the same problem with winter tyres: none of the major tyre shops in the UK sell them unless you get them to import a set specially for you. This kind of nonsense doesn't help:

I've been told at my local Kwik Fit that winter tyres are no longer available, and they can't get them.

 

[fuzzer]

Im sure costco could get you michelin alpin's if you asked them.

 

[blassberg]

On the ungritted roads I lost the back end on the first corner and that was barely crawling round the corner. OK so I thought I better switch the transmission to the C position which helped things.

Same
C has helped a LOT

Rambling starts here.....

This is my first rear wheel drive except for summer months in a E230.

In the warm and dry grip has been outstanding since changing pressures to 36/36.

In the damp though, easy to nudge the back out. Not sure how much of that is gearing and how much I still need to calibrate the right foot. Getting the confidence to do it on purpose now so that I can recognise the limits. Will try the same in C - for which I think the upchange is earlier so should be in a higher gear than S. With 7 ratios there's not a lot of difference from only one gear up.

In the snow in C not a problem yet. But then no serious inclines (so 3" is big in some circumstances? )

 

[fuzzer]

My previous c class with 195 tyres was really good in the snow with michelin pilot premacys on it. Its just the wide low profile tyres im unsure about.

 

[PJH]

2p worth

Driving on compressed snow or ice at around ZERO degrees is always more slippery than when it is much colder.
When a tyre passes over ice the weight of the vehicle causes the ice to melt slightly, resulting in a film of water on top of ice.
This is what causes the extreme slippery-ness.
In colder conditions the vehicle will have passed over that piece of ice before it has a chance to melt and therefore the ice stays comparatively dry. Hence more grip.

 

[mark.t]

2p worth

Driving on compressed snow or ice at around ZERO degrees is always more slippery than when it is much colder.
When a tyre passes over ice the weight of the vehicle causes the ice to melt slightly, resulting in a film of water on top of ice.
This is what causes the extreme slippery-ness.
In colder conditions the vehicle will have passed over that piece of ice before it has a chance to melt and therefore the ice stays comparatively dry. Hence more grip.

My son is in Norway http://www.trondheim.com/engelsk/ minus 9 today at the moment living with his girlfriend ...he used her fathers Audi the other day ripping all over the place on compact ice....tyres with studs on ........wimp

 

[BTB 500]

Otherwise the statement "very few people in the UK are prepared to pay for this option" becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

OK but look specifically at the Sharan, which is a fairly high volume car (very high volume if you include the Ford Galaxy and SEAT Alhambra). It's been available for years with 4WD ... yet hardly anyone who picks a Sharan chooses that option. That surely suggests there's little demand?

 

[BTB 500]

Also please remember that 4WD essentially helps in setting off or cornering under power, otherwise on standard tyres you are no different to any other car.

Well, there's a difference in any situation where you can potentially break traction ... on snow and ice with standard road tyres that can easily include driving along in a straight line.

 

[grober]

Chicken and egg DEJA VUE!

OK but look specifically at the Sharan, which is a fairly high volume car (very high volume if you include the Ford Galaxy and SEAT Alhambra). It's been available for years with 4WD ... yet hardly anyone who picks a Sharan chooses that option. That surely suggests there's little demand?

On your advice I have just looked at the Sharan details on the VW UK website.
There is no mention of 4 wheel drive on the MODEL main description pages. It is briefly mentioned on the download-able BROCHURE PDF but the 4motion options are not listed in the corresponding price PRICELIST PDF for 2006? If its available as you say then Volkswagen are certainly not marketing it with any enthusiasm! I wouldnt be surprised if many prospective customers dont even know the 4x4 option exists.
Playing devils advocate for a moment, let me suggest the following scenario. Its dealer projected stock order time at the local VW agent. What factory pre-order models will we get into stock for the next quarter? How many 4motions did we sell last quarter ? WHAT NONE! Are VW UK running a current 4motion promotion on telly? No! Oh well WE CERTAINLY DONT WANT ANY OF THOSE IN STOCK!! 6 weeks later a potential customer enquires about a Sharan. Well sir we've got these models in stock at present. A fourwheel drive version ?? weeeellll we could get one on special order from the factory but thats going to take some time, and most people find the front wheel drive quite adequate. Let me show this nice metalic blue sport model we have in the showroom. If you like it you can drive it away by the end of the week!!!!
4months down the line.
Its dealer projected stock order time at the local VW agent. What factory pre-order models will we get into stock for the next quarter? how many 4motions did we sell last quarter ? WHAT NONE! No! Oh well WE CERTAINLY DONT WANT ANY OF THESE IN STOCK!! ETC ETC ETC chicken and egg. It would be interesting to see just how many new 4motion sharans there are for sale at UK dealers right now? This is just speculation on my part you understand but you can see what I'm driving at.

 

[wallingd]

Diverting to another issue for a second, part if not most of the problem could be, whilst not 'blaming' anyone here, the less-experienced drivers tend to just bash their foot to the floor and weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee don't get anywhere. If they just used 2nd or even 3rd, and were very very careful with the throttle-application, then maybe people woule get further, summer tyres or not .

 

[BTB 500]

On your advice I have just looked at the Sharan details on the VW UK website.

There's a new Sharan coming in 2007, and from the website it looks like low-volume models like the top 'Carat' trim level and 4Motion have been dropped from the 2006 model year. But the new version (which is VW only - not a collaboration with Ford / SEAT) will retain the option of 4Motion:

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/59426/vw_goes_it_alone_with_new_sharan.html

 

[grober]

As usual I have drifted off topic again to my favorite hobby horse! Must be all the sherry in the trifle!! Rear wheel drive in snow Ah yes I run Nokian WR'S on the rear in the winter months. Great. I know the perceived wisdom is snow tyres all round but even a couple of snow tyres on the rear helps traction and handling. Braking well thats a different matter no matter what tyres you have on!

 

[SimonsMerc]

Also please remember that 4WD essentially helps in setting off or cornering under power, otherwise on standard tyres you are no different to any other car.

Hrm. I remember taking my Audi (S8 Quattro) over to Poland on normal everyday sunny tyres, in the deepest winter - and having a whale of a time. It performed perfectly, never once lost grip, despite snow, ICE, slush, black ice and any other horrid wintery road condition you can imagine. I'd say that the 4WD helps during the whole drive. I had planned on buying winter tyres if I'd needed them - but not once did I feel that they would be a worthwhile investment.

4WD rocks for snow.

-simon

 

[blassberg]

As usual I have drifted off topic........I know the perceived wisdom is snow tyres all round but even a couple of snow tyres on the rear helps traction and handling.

Maybe easier to stay on-topic if you put those fronts on

 

[DRICCI]

Snow?

You'll want one of these then....


http://www.ifwdc.com/events/recent/shamrock2000/images/tn_gwagen07.jpg

 

[Birdman]

My front drive has a modest uphill incline for 200 metres followed by a steeper descent for another 200m. In my previous Mercedes, a W210 E320 auto with ABS, I simply couldn't make it up the front drive in snow. Its 225/55 tyres would spin up as I approached the crest of the hill and the rear tyres would slide sideways with the camber until they hit a kerb. Then it could only sit crabwise, unable to move forward or backward, awaiting rescue.

Yesterday, my W210 with ESP (with wide 265/35 P Zeros on the rear) took the same snow covered hill easily, without the wheels spinning up. The car remained controllable and my alloys never felt threatened by the kerbs. ESP metered the power applied to each rear wheel on the way up, and controlled individual wheel braking on the way down.

Last week I watched a repeat of the Fifth Gear programme where Tiff Needell drove an X-Type 4WD Jaguar through a slalom course on a frozen lake. With Stability Control off, he lost it in a very big way. The same run with Stability Control on was perfectly executed. Tiff commented afterwards that ESP offered a huge leap forward in road safety and should be standard on every car. I have never seen that man looked so impressed, not even by his own driving!

What came across was that once moving, staying under control on a slippery road is not so much about the number of driven wheels, but the presence or absence of ESP/ESC.