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Saloon price comparison -- New BMW 5 Series and New E class

Autocar test the W212 against the new 5 today, and reckon the E just shades it.

I was in Germany at the weekend and picked up a copy of Auto Motor und Sport and in their test they reckoned the 5 was better!
 
Come on MB get your act together and keep up :crazy:

You should be saying that to BMW look on the perfomance side bmw can't keep up they had the M5-M6 for years now!

these cars are not ment for perfomance, if you want perfomance buy an AMG or a Merc with bigger engine! When I go and look at a 220cdi, I don't go and look for 0-60 times I look for reliability, comfort and style don't care how long it takes to get me to 60mph.

E500 388bhp and 530nm compare that to the 550i I think you will find that the 500 is faster from 0-60 and also has alot more torque than the BMW

E63 AMG - VS M5 = E63
C63 Vs M3 end results goes to the C63
C32 Vs M3 = c32
Not bringing the 65 AMG into this as this would destroy any BMW out there!

Come on BMW get your act together and keep up..:crazy:

I've driven a couple of BMW's including top of the range M6 and it was **** comapared to 63 or a 55 AMG!

Who needs a 8-speed anyway, 7G is enough!:thumb:
 
I don't understand why some are suprised that the prices of the Mercedes and BMW executive cars are so similar:dk:
We all know that the prices have nothing to do with what the the cars costs to produce and everything about what the market will stand.
How else could you rationalise the £10k price premium of a CLS over the W211? The cost to produce each must be almost identical if you ignore the economy of scale.
Now what have I just bought......:rolleyes:
 
Think its a ZF torque converter job.

Why 8 speeds?

Numbers sell, its one more than the MB 7spd box and the same as lexus use in the luxury cars. 6spds IMHO is ample but now with diesel engines making up the majority of sales-narrow torque bands are all the rage so I guess more gears keeps the car on the boil.

However, it will be a very complex box, and due to the number of ratios in it, the cogs will be "thinner" so more likely to break. Great for the 1st 5 years, then not so good.

Also allows a massively tall top gear to get the CO2s down. And more ratios for better acceleration figures.

Interesting to note the MB has more torque (400 vs 380Nm), BMW are not yet publishing urban / extraurban figures - the higher drag of the BMW also reduces its top speed...

Don't forget that for a bit more money there's the E250 which knocks a second of the 0-62 times.
 
I would go MB over BMW everytime. When I was choosing my new car BMW wasn't even a vague consideration.

The designs have never done much for me, and the image of the stereotypical BMW driver puts me off. If you drive a BMW people think you are a tosser, but if you drive a Merc they think you are a bit more upmarket.

Not that I personally have anything against BMW drivers but I don't want to be tarred with the image they have.
 
who cares , as long as it lasts the first 3 years thats somebody elses issue :)

If it breaks down a lot within the 3yr period its irksome for the owner to take it in, damages the original owners faith in the brand, and they go elsewhere.

How many on here because of the rust have left MB as a brand. Someone even bought a Skoda because of a rusty 210. I imagine if that 210 had stayed ok, he'd have for another Mercedes. That 210 was well out of warranty, but mud sticks, a 5-8yr old car packing in is still bad for business

Go a bit further up the range and you will find the mercedes gets cheaper significantly.

Look at the E350cdi Avantgarde vs 530d SE.

The F10 is also more upmarket inside, I would expect it to cost more.

In the olden days MBs always cost more than BMW's, not so today. Great for MB fans as if they kept 124 pricing with inflation an S class would be about £160k-£200k and a diesel E class into the late £50k-£70k dependent on options.

With the experience of the V6 engine I had, I wont entertain any 4pot diesel MB with such a refined alternative powerful engine on sale so your comparison is very handy. Also note that E90 prices werent far off E60 prices, so BMW have had to push F10 prices upwards, but you do get a lot of nice standard goodies.




Also allows a massively tall top gear to get the CO2s down. And more ratios for better acceleration figures.

Interesting to note the MB has more torque (400 vs 380Nm), BMW are not yet publishing urban / extraurban figures - the higher drag of the BMW also reduces its top speed...

Don't forget that for a bit more money there's the E250 which knocks a second of the 0-62 times.

The 7spd box allowed for an "overdrive" which gave intergalactic RPM in top. C320cdi at 80mph was just hovering on 2k RPM. 6sp ZF equipped 730d auto was the same in 6th.

8 cogs is overdoing it.
 
The F10 is also more upmarket inside, I would expect it to cost more.

In the olden days MBs always cost more than BMW's, not so today. Great for MB fans as if they kept 124 pricing with inflation an S class would be about £160k-£200k and a diesel E class into the late £50k-£70k dependent on options.

With the experience of the V6 engine I had, I wont entertain any 4pot diesel MB with such a refined alternative powerful engine on sale so your comparison is very handy. Also note that E90 prices werent far off E60 prices, so BMW have had to push F10 prices upwards, but you do get a lot of nice standard goodies.

i wouldnt say more upmarket , its just different. The E350CDI avantgarde is about £36k and the the 530d is about £38k

Factor in that the mb has standard... Adaptive xenons and auto its about 5k more expensive.
 
i wouldnt say more upmarket , its just different. The E350CDI avantgarde is about £36k and the the 530d is about £38k

Factor in that the mb has standard... Adaptive xenons and auto its about 5k more expensive.

£5k is quite a hike.

The 212 is cheaper than the 211 it replaces

The F10 I think may cost more than the E60 it replaces.

BMW have got the F10 cabin spot on, dont think the 212 will quite match its ambience but certainly in durability I have no doubts the 212 is up to the job.

Could easily forgoe the adaptive lights, normal xenon ok for me. The auto, nah I'd go for that. However some BM drivers like the manual, and its not on the V6 MB so BMW in this regard offers more choice.
 
I've driven a couple of BMW's including top of the range M6 and it was **** comapared to 63 or a 55 AMG!


BenzedUP - I agree with everything you said as I had an M6 before my current C63 - it was a great car spoiled by a crap gearbox and a lack of torque. To call it sh!t is a bit harsh but I've got to admit, I much prefer the C63 to both it and the e92 M3 I had before that!
 
I agree gear box ruins the car and I did not feel any pull from the engine, you had to get it reving to get what you want out of it! Just did not feel right to me, gear box kept being jerky etc there was alot of things I did not like, the fogy head lamps was one of them!

When I driven a C63 AMG in Merc world last year, I loved every sec of it and I thought that's what a perfomance car should be like, great noise, great handling and great engine, plenty of torque when you need it!
 
I've been living with a 212 for a few days Steve and you're right - stick with the 211. Without dissing other peoples choices, I am appalled by the 212.

Can you tell us why, please?

Case for the BMW 8 speed box is that amazingly (with some engines at least) they claim is does as many miles per gallon as the manual version. That is some achievement. And being in the same tax band should help sales.

I've driven the 5GT and can only say that the box is lovely. Smooth as silk.
 
Can you tell us why, please?

Case for the BMW 8 speed box is that amazingly (with some engines at least) they claim is does as many miles per gallon as the manual version. That is some achievement. And being in the same tax band should help sales.

I've driven the 5GT and can only say that the box is lovely. Smooth as silk.


I have been living with a brand new E500 Sport for a few days now which is always a better way of getting to know a car than a quick spin round the block with a salesman.

The reasons I'm not a fan of the 212 are that in my opinion it does not move the game on from the car it replaces and in some cases moves it back (maybe safety and economy excepted).

I find that as a car it is not a relaxing place to be. External styling is fussy and contrived, which unfortunately has been carried into the inside. I find all of the sharp angles and creases in the dash looking back at me does not make me feel relaxed at the wheel. The plastic mouldings all feel cheap and there is no 'softness' to anything. On the 211 for example the leather on the doorcard is beautifully padded as you squish your arm into it, but not so here. You have less padding and harder leather (if it really is leather).

Ergonomics are worse too. Why place the heating controls right down low and then give over half the dash to the stereo. They have comand so should not have to duplicate all the functions on the dash too.

The quality is also suspect. On my demo, at 65 mph + with the wipers on, the drivers side wiper actually hits the windscreen edge with a loud annoying clack.

There is far too much road noise too. Yes, it has Hawks pet hate of wide low pro tyres but they are only 18s and still look far to small for such a big body. I think the glass is thinner than it should be because when driving in the rain you can hear the tyre noise of the car in front. Almost as if you have a window open.

But worst of all is the ride. OK, this is the Sport model but it has the Airmatic option with a comfort mode. It is the worst riding car I've ever driven to be frank. Diagonal bumps have caused such a problem that I have hit my head on the side glass such was the force of body movement. Put it in S mode and the car is undriveable. For those who know London will know Mortimer St. It is a road with dips and craters, potholes and speedbumps in the centre of London. Driving this E Class down there was like being at Alton Towers. This ride is also causing the interior to creak and rattle already.

So my thoughts are that MB is a brand in crisis. It doesn't know what it wants to be and it has lost its mojo. An E Class should not be like this, nor should any Merc really. They seemed to have joined a party just as others have left. BMW did the challenging styling trick with Bangle which was a roaring success in the end, but now it is toned down again and a bit more uniform. BMW used to ride less well than a Merc because of the 'sporty' pretence, but now it seems BMW ride better. etc etc.

And as for the quality, my brand new car is in the menders already and this demo has a wonky wiper.

I accept that in the case of the E Class less is maybe more, but this one I'm in costs a distinctly unfunny 65k !

There you go Hawk - you did ask :)
 
So my thoughts are that MB is a brand in crisis. It doesn't know what it wants to be and it has lost its mojo. An E Class should not be like this, nor should any Merc really. They seemed to have joined a party just as others have left. BMW did the challenging styling trick with Bangle which was a roaring success in the end, but now it is toned down again and a bit more uniform. BMW used to ride less well than a Merc because of the 'sporty' pretence, but now it seems BMW ride better. etc etc.

when were you last in a BMW M sport model? the ride is as hard as hell... The merc sport suspension with the adaptive damping is streets ahead for in town comfort.
 
when were you last in a BMW M sport model? the ride is as hard as hell... The merc sport suspension with the adaptive damping is streets ahead for in town comfort.

Dont agree. We actually have a 535D Sport and even with runflats it is better than this loan car both around town and on a run. Like I say, maybe the 500 Sport is not the best in range. On the 211 Sport with Airmatic, you would put it in the softest setting and it was almost S Class smooth. Then you would select the hardest setting and it would firm up a lot. On the 212 the airmatic is either hard or really hard.
 
I was going to say i would just buy the E350 to make sure the car was at least as good and just pay a bit more, but then realised i would probably buy the 535D instead........
 
Dont agree. We actually have a 535D Sport and even with runflats it is better than this loan car both around town and on a run. Like I say, maybe the 500 Sport is not the best in range. On the 211 Sport with Airmatic, you would put it in the softest setting and it was almost S Class smooth. Then you would select the hardest setting and it would firm up a lot. On the 212 the airmatic is either hard or really hard.

cool , i understand what you mean now :)
 
BenzedUP - I agree with everything you said as I had an M6 before my current C63 - it was a great car spoiled by a crap gearbox and a lack of torque. To call it sh!t is a bit harsh but I've got to admit, I much prefer the C63 to both it and the e92 M3 I had before that!

I agree. I had an E39 M5 and ordered a new E60 M5 to replace it, but cancelled the order once I had driven the demo. The older car felt faster at normal high speeds due to the torque curve.
 
You should be saying that to BMW look on the perfomance side bmw can't keep up they had the M5-M6 for years now!

these cars are not ment for perfomance, if you want perfomance buy an AMG or a Merc with bigger engine! When I go and look at a 220cdi, I don't go and look for 0-60 times I look for reliability, comfort and style don't care how long it takes to get me to 60mph.

E500 388bhp and 530nm compare that to the 550i I think you will find that the 500 is faster from 0-60 and also has alot more torque than the BMW

E63 AMG - VS M5 = E63
C63 Vs M3 end results goes to the C63
C32 Vs M3 = c32
Not bringing the 65 AMG into this as this would destroy any BMW out there!

Come on BMW get your act together and keep up..:crazy:

I've driven a couple of BMW's including top of the range M6 and it was **** comapared to 63 or a 55 AMG!

Who needs a 8-speed anyway, 7G is enough!:thumb:

Not a chance the M5 & M3 are superior in every way to the C63 and E63. I personally tested the C63 against the M5 & M3 a while back as in one of my threads. The M5 & M3 has it licked in every respect the times around the ring were a lot slower for the MB and you cant even compare a C32 to a M3 csl its just not in the same league.

65 AMG is a slower car than the Hartge M5 604 bhp Vs 810 bhp go figure which is the quickest.

I agree on the M6 though unbalanced crock of Sh*t and not a good example.

As for who wants 8 speed, I do but I want them in a manual box not some poxy auto :D
 
Not a chance the M5 & M3 are superior in every way to the C63 and E63. I personally tested the C63 against the M5 & M3 a while back as in one of my threads. The M5 & M3 has it licked in every respect the times around the ring were a lot slower for the MB and you cant even compare a C32 to a M3 csl its just not in the same league.

65 AMG is a slower car than the Hartge M5 604 bhp Vs 810 bhp go figure which is the quickest.

I agree on the M6 though unbalanced crock of Sh*t and not a good example.

As for who wants 8 speed, I do but I want them in a manual box not some poxy auto :D

That's your opinion, but we all know your a bmw fan, lol.

the e92 m3 is not superior in everyway, how did you come up with that conclusion?

C63 Looks nicer, feels better quality than the M3, and also quicker from 0-60 or should I say it's quicker from 0 till it hits the limiter, not to mention it sounds alot better!

All the M3 has over the c63 is it handles better round the track!

Comparing an M5 to a C63 is not exactly fair. Compare the new E 63 with the M5.

why are you driving a poxy auto then? go buy a manual bmw and be happy.:p

The M5 has the same gearbox as the m6, to me all these bmw smg gearbox's are crap and trying to be ferrari like but it's cool just wanna be's but never gonna be!

I was talking about standard and not tuning companys, Hartge M5? lets not bring the brabus rocket or brabus bullit into this please.. ;)


EDIT; sorry you don't drive a "poxy" auto I just looked at your car and it's a "poxy" manual from what I can see. :D
 
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