So final tax for EV cars in 2023

[davymead]

Endless empty, huge double decker buses squeezing around the Island constantly straggling the white lines is my experience of public transport at its most ludicrous. You’d be hard pressed to count more than a handful of EV’s counted on any lengthy journey that I undertake, on an Island that is absolutely Gods gift for EV sales.

 

[markjay]

Replacing one method of pollution with another is not my idea of finding a solution or mildly moving towards that.
We all surely realise that taking away peoples freedom of movement is going to be a pretty big task. Offering the solution as public transport is looked on by the vast majority of people I know as some form of torture.

I am not sure that encouraging people to use public transport and taxis instead of private vehicles quite equates to "taking away people's freedom of movement". Possibly in some rural areas, but certainly not in our major cities (which is where 80% of the UK population lives). And yes, exemptions should be made for the few who live in farming communities and other remote areas.

 

[markjay]

That's because it is!! People who cant afford cars go on the train....need I say more!! Buses around here are nick named "Loser Cruisers"....for similar reasons!!

My office is 6 miles away from my home. It takes me 45 minutes to drive there by car after rush hour, or 1:15h between 7:30 and 9:30, or 35 minutes after midnight.

On public transport, it's the Bakerloo line to Paddington, then the Elizabeth Line to Whitechapel, then the Overground. 35 minutes door-to-door including changing platforms as well as walking to and from the station. And, if I start my journey after 9am, it's completely free (60+ Senior Oyster Card). Otherwise it cost me £7 both ways.

I really can't imagine that the drivers of all those cars that gridlock Marylebone Road simply couldn't possible make their journey by any other means.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

That's because it is!! People who cant afford cars go on the train....need I say more!! Buses around here are nick named "Loser Cruisers"....for similar reasons!!

That says much more about the people saying it than it does the people on the bus.

 

[davymead]

I am not sure that encouraging people to use public transport and taxis instead of private vehicles quite equates to "taking away people's freedom of movement". Possibly in some rural areas, but certainly not in our major cities (which is where 80% of the UK population lives). And yes, exemptions should be made for the few who live in farming communities and other remote areas.

Your views on transport are indicative of course of folks who live in cities, London folk in particular, and as such are woefully indifferent to the problems most folks in the country are facing for the future.

 

[st13phil]

I am not sure that encouraging people to use public transport and taxis instead of private vehicles quite equates to "taking away people's freedom of movement". Possibly in some rural areas, but certainly not in our major cities (which is where 80% of the UK population lives). And yes, exemptions should be made for the few who live in farming communities and other remote areas.

You have - perhaps inadvertently - described much that is wrong with how transport policies are decided upon and implemented in this country: they all take a city-centric view of the world.

I live in a modestly sized town approximately 12 miles from Oxford. Getting around by public transport is absolutely unviable, and that's the reality for virtually everyone who doesn't live in a large city.

 

[markjay]

Your views on transport are indicative of course of folks who live in cities, London folk in particular, and as such are woefully indifferent to the problems most folks in the country are facing for the future.

I am by no means suggesting that there is a one-size-fits-all solution for our transport problems.

However, some people seem to be using the 'rural communities' argument in order to stop traffic solutions from being implemented in UK's largest cities. Which I find to be disingenuous.

There's really no reason why (many) Londoners shouldn't ditch their cars and use public transport instead. And there's absolutely no reason why people living in areas with poor or nonexistent public transport shouldn't continue and use their cars as they currently do.

I really don't see why the two should be linked.

 

[markjay]

You have - perhaps inadvertently - described much that is wrong with how transport policies are decided upon and implemented in this country: they all take a city-centric view of the world.

I live in a modestly sized town approximately 12 miles from Oxford. Getting around by public transport is absolutely unviable, and that's the reality for virtually everyone who doesn't live in a large city.

We used to go to Oxford (from London) by train or on the 'Oxfird Tube' coach. Another option was to drive and leave the car in the Park-and-Ride car park in the outskirts of the city. On the occasion that we had lots of luggage (moving the daughter in or out of accommodations), we drove all the way and had a parking arrangement with a local hotel. It worked for us for the 5 years she was there. That been said, I am obviously not suggesting that you can get from anywhere to anywhere in the UK by public transport.

 

[davymead]

What I personally find disingenuous is that folks who live in cities, London in particular, think that what suits them should then be rolled out across the rest of the country as the meridian.

 

[st13phil]

I really don't see why the two should be linked.

Unfortunately, they are linked. Things like building policies for domestic residences that are specifying limited or no on-demise parking space “because we need to discourage personal car ownership / use” regardless of the utter lack of alternatives in the locale.

 

[markjay]

Unfortunately, they are linked. Things like building policies for domestic residences that are specifying limited or no on-demise parking space “because we need to discourage personal car ownership / use” regardless of the utter lack of alternatives in the locale.

In London, historically you couldn't get planning permission for new residential dwellings unless it included off-street parking (typically underground) with at least one parking bay per residential flat, and also a secure bicycle room located in a communal area with sufficient capacity. Interestingly, you could not get planing petmisuons for parking bays for any commercial units in the development (presumably to discourage employees from driving to work). More recently, due to shortage of new builds, some Councils are now permitting the building of new residential flats without off-street parking if the lease includes a mandatory clause that says that the Leaseholder is not entitled to a Resident's Parking Permit (which, effectively, means they can't own a car).

 

[ALFAitalia]

Possibly in some rural areas, but certainly not in our major cities (which is where 80% of the UK population lives

No they don't....80 percent of the population do indeed live in urban areas.....but far less live in the major cities....just over 50 percent. And us small town urban dwellers dont have anything like the quality or quantity of public transport.

 

[markjay]

No they don't....80 percent of the population do indeed live in urban areas.....but far less live in the major cities....just over 50 percent. And us small town urban dwellers dont have anything like the quality or quantity of public transport.

And that's fine, no one is suggesting that you shouldn't be allowed to keep your cars... but please don't stop us from taking neasures to reduce car usage inside large cities.... thanks.

 

[davymead]

Who was suggesting you should be prevented from reducing car usage in London, or any other city.

 

[BTB 500]

In London, historically you couldn't get planning permission for new residential dwellings unless it included off-street parking (typically underground) with at least one parking bay per residential flat, and also a secure bicycle room located in a communal area with sufficient capacity. Interestingly, you could not get planing petmisuons for parking bays for any commercial units in the development (presumably to discourage employees from driving to work).

Interesting. I worked in London for 37 years, commuting into Waterloo mainline station. After the first 3 years I was based in a huge office block built in the '60s, which featured a large three storey underground car park for staff. When the building was redeveloped in 2016 the replacement (which the company moved back into when completed) had no parking at all.

I never used the car park myself but many did commute by car and others found it handy if working very early or late or going out after work. Pre-congestion charge etc. of course.

I remember coming out of the office once at 3AM after a work emergency and convincing a black cab to drive me back to Surrey

 

[del320]

What I personally find disingenuous is that folks who live in cities, London in particular, think that what suits them should then be rolled out across the rest of the country as the meridian.

I’m starting to feel this discussion is becoming ever more pointless, what with the comfortable metro-centrists suggesting unnecessary car use/ownership should be discouraged, as people “think” a car is a necessity. To be fair, it is admitted that certain essential workers can be allowed cars.

The more realistic view is that most people do not live within walking or cycling distance of their work or a shop.

Many members here - eg @Bellow lives in a “remote” area where car ownership is essential. I too live in a rural area where the General Hospital, M&S, Tesco, B&Q, and the train terminus for Edinburgh are all within a 7 – 10 minute drive. Public transport to each of these delights is a minimum of an hourly service and journey times vary from 30 – 45 minutes. (after a 10-minute walk) I’m lucky!

Indulge me: there are many southern members who I suspect are not au fait with UK geography.

Here is Greater London and the commuter belt. Did you know that more people live here than all of Scotland, Wales, and N.Ireland put together? To a great extent, what happens in London is of little interest and no relevance to my life in the “sticks”

Here is my stamping ground – to the same scale. Some of you may have vaguely heard of Biggar and Moffat to the west, Hawick and Jedburgh to the south, Kelso and Berwick-upon-Tweed to the east, and the outer environs of Edinburgh to the north. Even England features to the south-east!

All within easy reach in my electric car when I invest £50k+ in one…

If my post seems familiar, it's because it appeared 11 months ago in this thread where this subject was discussed ad nauseam...

 

[Bellow]

As per my other posts on the subject, I believe that EVs are a great step forward, because they remove harmful exhaust gas emissions from city centres. But the long term solution can only come from reducing private car journeys (and ownership) and relying more on public transport. If we are to save the planet, the ultimately we need to manufacture less cars and make fewer car journeys.

Smaller rather than fewer EVs for city use, and use bio-fuels in our existing fleet of ICE vehicles.
That would avoid the massive and as yet unsolvable problem of end of life battery disposal and, it would avoid curtailing personal freedoms on which a functioning economy depends.

(And, to some extent, the financial incentives offered to EV drivers can actually be counter-productive, because they might get some people to believe that if EVs replace ICE cars then this will somehow allow us all to just carry-on as before - but this is not the case)

The sign of how some can misguide themselves is evident by the hybrid owners who only choose to charge the battery because petrol prices rose. Prior, they incurred all of the demerits of a battery and none of the benefits.

 

[st13phil]

but please don't stop us from taking neasures to reduce car usage inside large cities...

My lack of enthusiasm to support the reduction of car usage inside large cities is borne of experience.

What happens in large cities tends to get rolled out elsewhere - even where it is totally inappropriate - with the “justification” that it works for “X” so it will work here. But it doesn’t.

Oxford City Centre is a great case in point. Oxford City Council is run - and I use that term with caution - by a strange green-leaning administration. Their latest wheeze is a scheme to “zone” the city, and to fine any resident who has the temerity to exit their home zone in a private car on more than a limited number of days per year. But apparently that’s not being restrictive, because it’s for the greater good.

Be careful what you wish for.

 

[markjay]

...That would avoid the massive and as yet unsolvable problem of end of life battery disposal...

Unsolvable? Not necessarily. Car manufacturers are currently working on it, for example VAG:

"In the long term, the Volkswagen Group has set itself a very ambitious goal: to recycle 97 percent of all raw materials. Today, it is 53 percent, and the pilot plant in Salzgitter will bring this figure up to 72 percent. There is still some way to go before reaching the grand target of 97 percent. Even if a lot of small steps are necessary, it all serves an overarching agenda: the Volkswagen Group is doing everything it can to make e-mobility sustainable."

 

[clk320x]

If you live out ‘in the sticks’ an EV makes even more sense… you can charge it at home… and if you had a power cut you can (on some models) use the battery to run appliances in your home…