So final tax for EV cars in 2023

[Steveml63]

Hi,
We just replaced our tuned 2017 Audi TTS Mk3 with a Tesla Model 3 Performance (with Extended Auto Pilot option).
Have covered just over 2000km in it now and although I am still a confirmed petrol head - I really like the way the Tesla goes & handles!
There are a number of added advantages owning an EV in Abu Dhabi (or Dubai) - compared with UK.
Firstly, in Abu Dhabi - domestic electricity for expats is approx 6p per kw/h (less for locals).
This means to add a full charge to our car at home costs around £4.80 for a theoretical 500km range - versus around £45 to fill up the Audi TT for the same theoretical range.
Most shopping malls have 11kw AC chargers that you can plug into whilst you are doing the shopping - these charge at the same rate as our home charger - these are FREE to use. Our nearest shopping mall with these free chargers is Yas Mall (3.7km away).
Now that winter is coming here - I intend to charge here often to reduce my costs. I can drop car off early in the morning - walk home to do some work and return a bit later to do some shopping in the supermarket and then drive home with a full free charge.
We also have a Tesla Supercharger DC station at Masdar City ( a renewable energy themed city) 12km from our house.
I used this for the first time the other day and charged the car from 60 to 88% (not an ideal scenario - better from a lower starting charge level) in 25 minutes - again Superchargers are currently FREE here.
Forgetting theoretical range figures - my Tesla app shows that i have currently covered 2238km and charged 510kw/h
It also shows that 88% of that charging was done on home charger, 4% on Supercharger and remaining 8% on other chargers (the ones at Yas Mall). This means i have actually spent around £27 for 2400km of mileage (I still have 148km range left in car).
This would have cost approx £199 in petrol for the TT for the equivalent range.
Over the coming months - I intend to charge even less at home!
Regarding performance and handling comparisons between the Audi TTS and the Tesla - this is where it gets interesting!
The Audi was around 360hp and did 0-60 in a very respectable 3.87 seconds - but that was on a cool day and using launch control (I own a Racebox GPS performance meter like you see in Carwows Youtube videos).
The Tesla feels far quicker than the Audi and theoretically does 0-60 in around 3.1 seconds (with a 5ft rollout).
But - with the Tesla there is no special preparation or launch control to achieve fast launches - you just press the accelerator and off you go - mightily quickly.
Handling and ride comfort is far better in the Tesla than the Audi - and this is the biggest surprise of all.
There is a long list of other nice features & benefits of the Tesla - if anybody is interested let me know and I will add another post!
Cheers
Steve

 

[Mactech]

I’m starting to feel this discussion is becoming ever more pointless, what with the comfortable metro-centrists suggesting unnecessary car use/ownership should be discouraged, as people “think” a car is a necessity. To be fair, it is admitted that certain essential workers can be allowed cars.

The more realistic view is that most people do not live within walking or cycling distance of their work or a shop.

Many members here - eg @Bellow lives in a “remote” area where car ownership is essential. I too live in a rural area where the General Hospital, M&S, Tesco, B&Q, and the train terminus for Edinburgh are all within a 7 – 10 minute drive. Public transport to each of these delights is a minimum of an hourly service and journey times vary from 30 – 45 minutes. (after a 10-minute walk) I’m lucky!

Indulge me: there are many southern members who I suspect are not au fait with UK geography.
View attachment 134039
Here is Greater London and the commuter belt. Did you know that more people live here than all of Scotland, Wales, and N.Ireland put together? To a great extent, what happens in London is of little interest and no relevance to my life in the “sticks”
View attachment 134040
Here is my stamping ground – to the same scale. Some of you may have vaguely heard of Biggar and Moffat to the west, Hawick and Jedburgh to the south, Kelso and Berwick-upon-Tweed to the east, and the outer environs of Edinburgh to the north. Even England features to the south-east!

All within easy reach in my electric car when I invest £50k+ in one…

If my post seems familiar, it's because it appeared 11 months ago in this thread where this subject was discussed ad nauseam...

My father's family were in Lauder, and your stamping ground is a lovely place to be.
Back in the 30's (thinks....that's our next decade!) my father would cycle the 7 miles from Lauder to Earlston to catch the train to school in Duns.
The first leg was fairly eco friendly, but I can't imagine the steam train was that green...but I guess there were very few people to pollute on the line to Duns.

Commuting has been going on a long time now. My own solution has been to retire. I'm doing far less of any sort of miles now apart from the 5 or 6 a day walking the dogs.

 

[SW18]

There is a long list of other nice features & benefits of the Tesla - if anybody is interested let me know and I will add another post!

Yes, please! If you're willing to share more, I'm keen to read it - am pondering getting a Tesla and in particular wondering how much £ to spend on adding extra autopilot features...

 

[SW18]

On a wider note, I always enjoy the cut and thrust of these EV / public transport debates. I can see all sides of the debate but find myself falling more on the side of change being a good thing.

With due respect, I do wonder if some responses to these types of threads are tinged with more than a little Fear Of Change. Yes, things change; yes, policy-makers sometimes have daft ideas; but generally life goes onwards and upwards. My approach is to embrace change and make the best of it rather than be perennially looking backwards. Sometimes there might be bumps along way, but it's all part of the journey.

 

[optimusprime]

I did say 2023 ..You know just how the news comes out early,, then next time its something else .

 

[190]

On a wider note, I always enjoy the cut and thrust of these EV / public transport debates. I can see all sides of the debate but find myself falling more on the side of change being a good thing.

With due respect, I do wonder if some responses to these types of threads are tinged with more than a little Fear Of Change. Yes, things change; yes, policy-makers sometimes have daft ideas; but generally life goes onwards and upwards. My approach is to embrace change and make the best of it rather than be perennially looking backwards. Sometimes there might be bumps along way, but it's all part of the journey.

Is it fear of change or is it simply that the evidence so far looks like private cars are becoming substantially more expensive, possibly to the extent that the less well off won't be able to afford one. Call me a cynic but at the same time I observe car manufacturers are making record profits on much lower volumes. No wonder there isa rush to produce EV's. I suspect the manufacturers know that if they are ever to get volumes back when they produce only EV's they will need to make a £20K small family car as not everyone can afford 40K.

 

[Bellow]

With due respect, I do wonder if some responses to these types of threads are tinged with more than a little Fear Of Change. Yes, things change; yes, policy-makers sometimes have daft ideas; but generally life goes onwards and upwards. My approach is to embrace change and make the best of it rather than be perennially looking backwards. Sometimes there might be bumps along way, but it's all part of the journey.

We are being prepped for blackouts this winter while being told that EVs are the future (and we will be denied purchase of ICE) and that the generating capacity and infrastructure is in place to support them. I don't fear change I fear falsehoods.

Meanwhile we have an abundance of vehicles, manufacturing capability, and maintenance capability related to ICE that are to be replaced with CO2 intensive during manufacture EVs before the CO2 footprint of ICE is fully amortised and the life of which could be extended by making bio-fuels available. More, with bio-fuels, being CO2 neutral, the amount of bio-fuel an engine consumed matters little. Thus, without having to chase the last drop of fuel efficiency such an engine will be low in NOx production, emit zero particulates and be cheap and simple to manufacture requiring little in the way of expensive materials or machining, complex transmissions, expensive, complex and unreliable exhaust after-treatments. But bio-fuels aren't on the agenda because the land required is being used for meat production. That's where you find your ''Fear Of Change''. Or reluctance at best. There may be a few (admittedly few) here who are venturing towards EV. I guarantee there are fewer prepared to change their diet to enable bio-fuels. Meat or mobility?

EVs are unaffordable for most and their evangelicals seem blind to the fact that the whole CO2 reduction plan is on the cusp of failing due to high cost. Unless the plan incorporates some affordable solutions to everyday issues such as personal mobility for the masses it will founder. A populist politician will be along in most western countries soon to further their own prospects on the back of that.

 

[markjay]

Your 12 month tester’s report….

Whether you’re happy with it, whether it’s proving to be as cheap and reliable as expected, and whether you would replace it with another when it’s time is due, or switch to something else.

It doesn’t need to be as long or as wordy as this 40,000 mile review of the Tesla 3 from Car and Driver

Our 2019 Tesla Model 3 Was a Learning Experience

Firstly, just to say that I had absolutely no problems whatsoever with the car, bar a few very minor bugs and quirks with the onboard computer that disappeared as software updates were released.

My IONIQ 5 was a very early model and therefore (sadly) only the infotainment system can receive software updates Over-the-Air (OTA), which meant the it needed two visits to the dealer to have the more-substantial software updates implemented (to the car's drivetrain system and battery management system).

The software updates were carried-out by the dealer FOC, which I guess is to be expected now that cars' software is becoming more akin to iPhone's iOS......

My recommendation is to purchase a 2023 car that should have the additional hardware required for OTA updates for everything (I.e. not just for the infotainment/navigation/maps), which will save the need for a visit to the dealer whenever a new software update is released.

Then, in terms of luxury, Hyundai is (clearly) not a prestige marque - I have the highest trim level for the model range, and yet the interior is still nowhere as luxurious as cars with the higher trim levels from Jaguar/Tesla/MB etc. Although, Hyundai do have an upmarket brand called Genesis (based on the same platform as the IONIQ 5) if you want more creature-comfort features and gizmos.

However, the build quality is nothing short of amazing. The fit and finish are perfect (and I am a very OCD person....), nothing feels flimsy, nothing broke, and nothing creaks. The cars feels as solid as it was on day one. It is extremely well put together - Hyundai really nailed it on this front.

The ride is as comfortable as it can get for a 2t SUV... again, 2023 models should have 'smart dampers', and so will probably have even-better ride. It's no sports car, with the suspension tuned for comfort rather than performance and handling, and it just doesn't feel like a car that you'd want to throw fast around corners, instead it's in its element in town and on motorways rather than on twisting B roads (that been said, the IONIQ 5 will soon be available as an 'N' version, which is Hyundai's equivalent of Audi RS / BMW M-Power / MB AMG / Seat Cupra / Jaguar R etc, if you're 'that way inclined'...).

It's a very wide car for a standard SUV (because the E-GMP platforming that it is based on is also the base for a future larger SUV for the US market, the IONIQ 7). This makes the car difficult to drive through width-restriction bollards (the car fits, but the 20" alloys are at risk of getting kerbed) and other tight spaces. On the plus side, it comfortably sits three adults at the rear, especially as the floor is flat because there's no transmission tunnel. I guess this is one reason it seems to be popular mostly among London's Uber drivers...

In terms of tech, it has Hyundai's 'autopilot' system called Highway Driver Assist 2 (HDA2), which works well on motorways and most A roads, but is nowhere as sophisticated as Tesla's autopilot (let alone Tesla's high-end Full Self-Driving aka FSD).

The range is more than enough for me, and the superfast charging speed is great but irrelevant to me since I only charge it overnight anyway. I opted for the RWD model because the car is cheaper, lighter, and has longer range than the AWD model. The advantages of the AWD car are even-faster acceleration (irrelevant to me, since I am not even using the insanely-fast acceleration already available on the RWD car...), and better tracking in wet and snow (again, irrelevant to me in London, and the car came with summer tyres anyway).

Personally, I do like the looks, and 14 months on, I still get the occasional thumbs-up from passers-by. It's very spacious and comfortable inside, very relaxing on long journeys, and generally a very good and practical car all around. Mrs MJ loves it (in fact, she chose it).

My only criticism is that - in the good old tradition of Korean cars - it is a bit bland. Driving it is nowhere near as enjoyable as driving my (now-gone) W204 was.

 

[clk320x]

Yes, please! If you're willing to share more, I'm keen to read it - am pondering getting a Tesla and in particular wondering how much £ to spend on adding extra autopilot features...

What do you want to know? I have an S with autopilot. I wouldn’t be without AP now… at the very least add ‘enhanced autopilot’… the ‘full self drive’ upgrade isn’t needed/truly ready in the U.K. for now (mainly due to policy makers being restrictive + UN/ECE Regulation) & can be added later.

I pretty much use the autopilot every single day on the motorway… it makes covering long journeys an absolute breeze…..

 

[markjay]

...Whether you’re happy with it, whether it’s proving to be as cheap and reliable as expected, and whether you would replace it with another when it’s time is due, or switch to something else....

And to actually answer your question:

Very pleased with it, yes, and will happily buy another (though this isn't one of those cases where you become an aficionado of the marque I.e. I'd choose another car over it if I could find a better one), and it's ridiculously cheap to run (cheap 'fuel', very little annual servicing cost, no need to ever replace the brakes, no VED, and many other concessions) though the latter applies to all EVs, really.

 

[clk320x]

And to actually answer your question:

Very pleased with it, yes, and will happily buy another (though this isn't one of those cases where you become an aficionado of the marque I.e. I'd choose another car over it if I could find a better one), and it's ridiculously cheap to run (cheap 'fuel', very little annual servicing cost, no need to ever replace the brakes, no VED, and many other concessions) though the latter applies to all EVs, really.

and no stinky smells….

 

[grober]

There are parallels to be drawn here with the energy consumed in peoples houses. There are many stratagems being put forward to reduce energy consumption which are applicable to vehicles also. Don't heat rooms in your house you don't need, reduce temperature, improve insulation efficiency etc. In a similar fashion to maintain – personal mobility freedom may involve a large reduction in vehicle weight and size and the thorny question of vehicle occupancy. We have yet to see the Ford model T equivalent electric car but if individual EV ownership has a future these design and use issues will have to be addressed.

 

[markjay]

There are parallels to be drawn here with the energy consumed in peoples houses. There are many stratagems being put forward to reduce energy consumption which are applicable to vehicles also. Don't heat rooms in your house you don't need, reduce temperature, improve insulation efficiency etc. In a similar fashion to maintain – personal mobility freedom may involve a large reduction in vehicle weight and size and the thorny question of vehicle occupancy. We have yet to see the Ford model T equivalent electric car but if individual EV ownership has a future these design and use issues will have to be addressed.

I think you're right in the sense that up to now EVs were just the same as conventional ICE cars but with the engine and fuel tank replaced with a motor and battery. Perhpas what we are lacking here is some start-from-scratch approach to personal mobility in the modern age (and 136 years after the motorcar was first invented....).

 

[clk320x]

Just seen this post on another group…. I thought it was quite funny.

It’s obvious that electric cars are a complete failure.
Therefore I am considering buying a gasoline powered vehicle instead. But in order to decide I have a few questions I’d like to answer to make sure I am making the right decision..

1. I heard that gasoline cars cannot be refueled at home. Is that correct? How often do I need to go somewhere else to refuel? Is it multiple times a year? If true, will there eventually be a way for me to refuel at home?

2. What type of maintenance is required and how often? The salesperson has mentioned a “transmission”, “clutches”, pumps, valves and spark plugs. What are those? How will I know they need to be replaced? How expensive and how long will the car be inoperable for?

3. Can I accelerate and slow down using a single pedal like with my electric car? Will I get some of the gasoline back when I slow down or go downhill? I assume yes because it seems very wasteful to lose all this energy as heat (and that probably wears out the brakes, doesn’t it?)

4. The gasoline car I test drove had a noticeable lag when I pressed on the gas pedal. Is that common for all gasoline cars? Also the acceleration wasn’t impressive. Maybe the one I tested was defective.

5. The car I tested was vibrating and making a lot of noise. Do you think this car was defective? Or do all gasoline cars do that?

6.Is it true that gasoline is flammable? If yes, will I have to keep it in the car when I park it in my garage, or should I pump it out and store it somewhere else? Is there a protection system in the car to prevent a fire in case of a crash?

7. I also understand that gasoline comes from oil. Is it true (probably since I read it on Facebook) that extracting, transportation and refining of oil are associated with local and global environmental problems? I’ve read that wars have been fought for control over oil reserves and that millions of people have died as a result. Is there a solution to those problems?

8. The car I test drove was emitting smoke with an obnoxious odor. Is that related in any way with the 7 million annual deaths caused by air pollution?

9. Is it true (again, probably since I saw it on FB) that some countries have passed laws prohibiting the sales of new gasoline cars as early as 2025? Will I be able to sell mine at that time? If yes will the value of gasoline cars remain stable?

I am troubled. A gasoline car is cheaper than an electric car but if my math is correct it actually may cost me more over time. Am I missing something?

 

[davymead]

We are being prepped for blackouts this winter while being told that EVs are the future (and we will be denied purchase of ICE) and that the generating capacity and infrastructure is in place to support them. I don't fear change I fear falsehoods.

Meanwhile we have an abundance of vehicles, manufacturing capability, and maintenance capability related to ICE that are to be replaced with CO2 intensive during manufacture EVs before the CO2 footprint of ICE is fully amortised and the life of which could be extended by making bio-fuels available. More, with bio-fuels, being CO2 neutral, the amount of bio-fuel an engine consumed matters little. Thus, without having to chase the last drop of fuel efficiency such an engine will be low in NOx production, emit zero particulates and be cheap and simple to manufacture requiring little in the way of expensive materials or machining, complex transmissions, expensive, complex and unreliable exhaust after-treatments. But bio-fuels aren't on the agenda because the land required is being used for meat production. That's where you find your ''Fear Of Change''. Or reluctance at best. There may be a few (admittedly few) here who are venturing towards EV. I guarantee there are fewer prepared to change their diet to enable bio-fuels. Meat or mobility?

EVs are unaffordable for most and their evangelicals seem blind to the fact that the whole CO2 reduction plan is on the cusp of failing due to high cost. Unless the plan incorporates some affordable solutions to everyday issues such as personal mobility for the masses it will founder. A populist politician will be along in most western countries soon to further their own prospects on the back of that.

Succinctly written and exactly my sentiments.

 

[markjay]

Succinctly written and exactly my sentiments.

All good and valid points, though there's no reference to the health benefits of removing harmful exhaust gas emissions from city centres, which to my mind should have been referenced for completeness if nothing else. The willingness to accept 'low NOx emissions' where people work and live and where kids go to school is, again to my mind, unacceptable. And, my overall conclusion isn't that we should prefer ICE cars over EVs... but that we should have less privately-owned cars (however propelled) and make fewer car journeys. There's just no 'green' option for two-cars-per-family for everyone.

 

[m80]

As 'any' EV is out of my price range, and the lower cost one's are deficient for my purposes anyway, there is no advantage in my taking much time to compare overall costs.

My limited internet research keeps finding what are pretty much click bait write ups. You read them and they support that EV's will save money. But I haven't seen one that truly compares 'total' costs over ownership.
I realise this is difficult on a ''how long is that string' principle,
but purchase cost, average annual mileage, maintenance comparison's and such, then resale value (which can be more difficult to guess at on the legislative demonised ICE) could be used to compare the cost per mile over perhaps 40k miles.

There must be some worthwhile Which type comparison's.

Our most expensive mo mo is the 2014 Viano.
Since I invested much in the engine out refurb it has cost more than anticipated.
It isn't efficient by little car comparison's, but then a little car wouldn't serve purpose, EV vans wouldn't either.
Over 19k miles, over 26 months, including tyres, tax, tyres, well everything it has consumed, had fitted, or even been fined for it runs at 60p per mile. Could an EV replacement beat that?

After all I should be able to maintain one of those myself as well.

 

[markjay]

As 'any' EV is out of my price range, and the lower cost one's are deficient for my purposes anyway, there is no advantage in my taking much time to compare overall costs.

My limited internet research keeps finding what are pretty much click bait write ups. You read them and they support that EV's will save money. But I haven't seen one that truly compares 'total' costs over ownership.
I realise this is difficult on a ''how long is that string' principle,
but purchase cost, average annual mileage, maintenance comparison's and such, then resale value (which can be more difficult to guess at on the legislative demonised ICE) could be used to compare the cost per mile over perhaps 40k miles.

There must be some worthwhile Which type comparison's.

Our most expensive mo mo is the 2014 Viano.
Since I invested much in the engine out refurb it has cost more than anticipated.
It isn't efficient by little car comparison's, but then a little car wouldn't serve purpose, EV vans wouldn't either.
Over 19k miles, over 26 months, including tyres, tax, tyres, well everything it has consumed, had fitted, or even been fined for it runs at 60p per mile. Could an EV replacement beat that?

After all I should be able to maintain one of those myself as well.

Firstly, I don't think that for the average private owner the overall cost of EV ownership is lower than that of a comparable ICE car over the same period of time. However, the point regarding lower 'fuel' costs and lower servicing and maintenance costs (and, at current, no VED) is still very relevant because it reduces the gap and partially compensates for some of the higher purchase price of EVs.

Of course, you'll have to actually be doing thousands of miles annually before the savings in fuel and maintenance costs get close to break even. And, most people doing that kind of mileage will be business users anyway, and for them EVs are significantly cheaper than ICE cars from the get go simply because of the low BIK and even before anything else is considered.

So, yes, for the average private owner, EV ownership is still more expensive overall.

 

[Bellow]

All good and valid points, though there's no reference to the health benefits of removing harmful exhaust gas emissions from city centres, which to my mind should have been referenced for completeness if nothing else.

I did address that.
High NOx and particulate emissions is a consequence of pursuing lowest possible CO2 emissions and the resulting downsized very high BMEP with direct injection (petrol and diesel) engines employed. When CO2 is neutralised during the production of bio-fuels fuel efficiency as it is currently pursued becomes irrelevant and the engines available are so low in any pollutants deemed harmful to health that use in cities is viable.

The willingness to accept 'low NOx emissions' where people work and live and where kids go to school is, again to my mind, unacceptable. And, my overall conclusion isn't that we should prefer ICE cars over EVs... but that we should have less privately-owned cars (however propelled) and make fewer car journeys. There's just no 'green' option for two-cars-per-family for everyone.

Without viable affordable personal transportation, how will a city continue to function? Care workers for example, door to door to door... how is that even vaguely possible by public transport?

 

[clk320x]

If you can’t afford an EV then no one’s asking you to switch… The same thing happens with any new technology… look at OLED TVs for example… when we got our first one it was around £4k…. now a similar one can be had for £1.5k! The costs will come down with a ramp up in production….

The fact of the matter is most of the people presenting these arguments CAN afford an EV and it WILL fit their needs/use case… BUT they are so obsessed with sticking with their ICE (for no real reason for their personal situation) that they pretend that they are massively concerned about the fact that some won’t afford to make the switch.

Looking at ‘Bellows’ example above… ‘care workers won’t be able to do home visits’…. Are you actually serious? Do you really think this will happen…

There’s no real point continuing this conversation.