Stop expanding the ULEZ to all the London boroughs in 2023

[MikeInWimbledon]

Let’s not forget that the point of ULEZ is to reduce pollution in a concentrated area for the benefit of those people who live and/or work in London. Those people who previously would have driven their non-compliant vehicles into London aren’t now instead going to be driving round and round the Chilterns to do the same mileage.

Yes, there will be some who take a longer route to get to their desired destination, rather than cutting straight across a corner of the zone. But I would think that there will be more who are incentivised by the charge to make changes; whether that be eventually getting round to changing their car, using public transport more, or some other means of avoiding the excessive payment.

Even if there was no overall reduction in pollution, with it all being transferred to the edge of the zone, by being spread over a greater area it becomes a less intrusive problem. In total, less people will be inhaling lower concentrations of NOx and small particulates.

The congestion zone, not Ulez, has shoved Central London traffic out to the edges of the Congestion zone, and there are plenty of claims that ULEZ has done the same, now that you can’t drive through most of the London’s Green belt because it’s ULEZ

I’ve paid congestion zone charges six times since it was implemented two decades ago and that’s because I drive further around the edge of the congestion zone, rather than through the middle. (Obviously I use public transport to go ito places actually in the zone)

 

[markjay]

Doesn’t that argument miss the economic benefit of the car journey itself?

The vast majority of car journeys are not for recreational purposes, but rather either directly for or an enabler for economic activity. As such, forcing those journeys “off the road” would reduce economic activity and thus be a net cost.

That's not my experience in London.

Saturday midday and Sunday afternoon are when I try to avoid driving, due to very heavy traffic everywhere. Presumably shoppers and other non-work-related activities?

 

[markjay]

The congestion zone, not Ulez, has shoved Central London traffic out to the edges of the Congestion zone, and there are plenty of claims that ULEZ has done the same, now that you can’t drive through most of the London’s Green belt because it’s ULEZ...

The difference between the two is that the Congestion Charge can't be avoided (these days), while you can avoid the ULEZ charge by driving a compliant car.

So while the Congestion Zone is pushing traffic to the edge of the Zone, ULEZ is doing that for only a small portion of cars - those are still non-compliant. And, over time, less and less cars will be pushed to the edge of the ULEZ zone (as the older Diesels get replaced with newer cars).

 

[st13phil]

Saturday midday and Sunday afternoon are when I try to avoid driving, due to very heavy traffic everywhere. Presumably shoppers and other non-work-related activities?

But aren't "shoppers", by definition, engaged in economic activity?

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

That's not my experience in London.

Saturday midday and Sunday afternoon are when I try to avoid driving, due to very heavy traffic everywhere. Presumably shoppers and other non-work-related activities?

But is Saturday lunchtime and Sunday afternoon "the vast majority of car journeys?"

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

The difference between the two is that the Congestion Charge can't be avoided (these days), while you can avoid the ULEZ charge by driving a compliant car.

So while the Congestion Zone is pushing traffic to the edge of the Zone, ULEZ is doing that for only a small portion of cars - those are still non-compliant. And, over time, less and less cars will be pushed to the edge of the ULEZ zone (as the older Diesels get replaced with newer cars).

What makes you think that pre 2015 diesels and pre-2003 petrols are only a small portion of cars?

If cars will become cleaner over time, why are we taxing the working class now to stop them driving into Epping Forest, to go for cancer treatment at the Marsden in Sutton, and to catch flights out of LHR ? Why not just ban 2014 diesels altogether, if this isn't a tax raising gambit ?

 

[Darrell]

Why not just ban 2014 diesels altogether, if this isn't a tax raising gambit ?

This. Or are we led to believe that Khan is doing us a favour!!

 

[markjay]

What makes you think that pre 2015 diesels and pre-2003 petrols are only a small portion of cars?

If cars will become cleaner over time, why are we taxing the working class now to stop them driving into Epping Forest, to go for cancer treatment at the Marsden in Sutton, and to catch flights out of LHR ? Why not just ban 2014 diesels altogether, if this isn't a tax raising gambit ?

That's not what I said.

Given that (a) some drivers will travel through the ULEZ zone in their non-compliant cars and pay the charge anyway, and (b) as people replace older cars, they will naturally opt for a compliant car if they regularly drive through ULEZ, and (c) some people will simply leave their non-compliant cars at home and travel by public transport to avoid paying the £12.50 charge, between all that, the actual number of drivers who will choose to travel around the edge of ULEZ will - in all likelihood - only be a small proportion of the total volume of cars that travelled through the area before the ULEZ charge has been applied. This is very different to how cars were pushed into the edge of the Congestion Zone creating heavy traffic along the routes surrounding it. I do not believe that people living near the edge of ULEZ regularly see long queues of old Diesel cars on the roads outside the ULEZ zone. This only happens on Internet forums.... but not in real life.

 

[clk320x]

If they were banned altogether then people on here would be arguing that they should be allowed to drive in and pay a charge… it’s just never ending complaints.

The zone has been well and truly expanded, yet this thread continues.

 

[Fastcar155]

My son lives in Tooting and loves the congestion charge as many of the roads around their property have been turned into camera controlled dead end roads. When I visit him we have to go round the houses to arrive at his door step. I fully understand different people have different requirements as to pollution control but Khan was a very popular MP within his constituency and I feel that in some way has lost the plot regarding private transport , the tube , buses and trains.I understand that many of the initial new route master buses had the batteries removed so they just run of fuel.
As others have mentioned our leaders are driven round in ICE propelled cars but demand we all go and purchase heavily depreciation overpriced battery cars.
My latest car is Euro 6 A-G compliant, what ever that is !

 

[Darrell]

My son lives in Tooting and loves the congestion charge as many of the roads around their property have been turned into camera controlled dead end roads. When I visit him we have to go round the houses to arrive at his door step. I fully understand different people have different requirements as to pollution control but Khan was a very popular MP within his constituency and I feel that in some way has lost the plot regarding private transport , the tube , buses and trains.I understand that many of the initial new route master buses had the batteries removed so they just run of fuel.
As others have mentioned our leaders are driven round in ICE propelled cars but demand we all go and purchase heavily depreciation overpriced battery cars.
My latest car is Euro 6 A-G compliant, what ever that is !

They’ve had the CG a while haven’t they??

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

My son lives in Tooting and loves the congestion charge as many of the roads around their property have been turned into camera controlled dead end roads. When I visit him we have to go round the houses to arrive at his door step. I fully understand different people have different requirements as to pollution control but Khan was a very popular MP within his constituency and I feel that in some way has lost the plot regarding private transport , the tube , buses and trains.I understand that many of the initial new route master buses had the batteries removed so they just run of fuel.
As others have mentioned our leaders are driven round in ICE propelled cars but demand we all go and purchase heavily depreciation overpriced battery cars.
My latest car is Euro 6 A-G compliant, what ever that is !

Sad IQ has always been clear that his job is to upgrade the unionised public transport system. His issue is that he doesn't have any money.

Right across Europe the Socialist / Liberal / Green agenda has been to upgrade public transport and electrify transport. We're into our second decade of this now. The Germans started investing in electric at the end of the Noughties and the rest of the industry followed

No politician is demanding that you replace your car any time soon. The whole thing is phased and it will take decades (plural) to remove ICE from the streets.

As for the EU deadlines: well, if there's one thing to love about them, it's the sound of EU deadlines rushing by. We may consider buying new EV's next decade but the voters in the Club Med States will kick the deadlines down the road.

(Very fond of Tooting: very liveable place with excellent links. Good choice.)

 

[TC350]

But aren't "shoppers", by definition, engaged in economic activity?

If they can’t drive to the shops they go online. So an adaptable activity.

 

[Bellow]

If they can’t drive to the shops they go online. So an adaptable activity.

Yeah, adapt to the crap substitutions that bedevils online grocery shopping.

 

[Darrell]

If they can’t drive to the shops they go online. So an adaptable activity.

And bang goes the high street.

 

[Darrell]

From what I’ve read here it seems that the ULEZ comes down to 2 ways of looking at things.

On 1 side you have the people that believe that it’s literally a money making scheme disguised as a way of giving us a clean environment

Or a way of giving us a clean environment and making some cash along the way to prop up Khans financial mis management

 

[markjay]

From what I’ve read here it seems that the ULEZ comes down to 2 ways of looking at things.

On 1 side you have the people that believe that it’s literally a money making scheme disguised as a way of giving us a clean environment

Or a way of giving us a clean environment and making some cash along the way to prop up Khans financial mis management

I'll go with the latter.

 

[TC350]

And bang goes the high street.

What’s a high street? I vaguely remember reading about them in history books.

 

[ALFAitalia]

What makes you think that pre 2015 diesels and pre-2003 petrols are only a small portion of cars?

Because they are.. thats a fact.... and even before the bigger ULEZ zone most cars were compliant. In terms of just cars, over nine in 10 cars now meet the ULEZ standards. Car compliance in the expanded outer London area is 96.4%, up from 92.4% in June 2023 and 90% in November 2022, when Sadiq Khan, announced the decision to expand the ULEZ London-wide. So basically even before the expansion not many were ever going to pay the £12.50..... and that number has now nearly halved

 

[clk320x]

What’s a high street? I vaguely remember reading about them in history books.

It’s where you pay more for the same product, and have to face the inconvenience of driving to the place, parking (with the high chance of getting your car dinged), wasting time looking around (often meaning your family members will buy other unnecessary stuff) and then carrying said item back to your car and then driving back home (whilst probably getting stuck in traffic)…