Stop expanding the ULEZ to all the London boroughs in 2023

[Darrell]

If you read his other posts across other threads it’s pretty clear the main reason he’s so upset is his fathers E350 had to be replaced.

Can’t blame him really.

 

[Dryce]

If you read his other posts across other threads it’s pretty clear the main reason he’s so upset is his fathers E350 had to be replaced.

So .... complaining because it is affecting people.

 

[markjay]

Some on here do like to make it sound like London is a polluted slum with poisonous air like Lahore, Pakistan (officially the most polluted city in the world.....depending on which table you read!!).
London levels are already well within WHO guidelines and they are getting better all the time dues to better cars....but also other reason (industry, domestic use etc). As said above they are some quite small places in the UK with far worse pollution. The geographical position of the UK....in the sea of the West coast of Europe...... means that most of the time the prevailing wind keeps the UK cleaner than it might be if it was elsewhere too. ULEZ does not affect me (but these things have a habit of spreading)......and it will only be a matter of time before E4 petrol cars won't cut it anymore and those of you with E5 cars will be forced to make changes. Seems like a massive hammer to crack a pretty small nut. Does anyone know anyone who has died or even has serious health problems as a direct result of London air.....I doubt it very much.....and if you say yes them proving it is just about impossible.

This has already been answered: Khan isn't the Mayor of Lahore. Each Mayor should look after their own city.....

 

[markjay]

It's not so much funny as poignant and worrying.

The backlash on the ULEZ reminds me of the poll tax. There were a lot of people who would normally be silent and didn't partake in demonstrations or action - but were sufficiently angry they didn't speak up or condemn.

Had there been the equivalent of the cameras in the poll tax situation - which are not just enforcement devices but visible symbols - then we would have seen a similar situation where they would be targeted.

Problem for Mr Khan now is that if he backs down then his ULEZ is going to be remembered as the equivalent of that poll tax moment. If he doesn't then if this builds then there is the issue of the boroughs and the civil disobedience / vandalism and unrest and lack of calm that goes on for a long time. I doubt he planned for any of this. And I suspect that he and his peers in Labour are more used to think of the Conservatives as being the only likely recipients of this sort of backlash - which makes the poll tax analogy more stark.

And, if he backs down now, then all those people who already replaced their much-loved old Diesel cars in anticipation of the ULEZ extension, will feel cheated....

 

[markjay]

It's not so much funny as poignant and worrying.

The backlash on the ULEZ reminds me of the poll tax. There were a lot of people who would normally be silent and didn't partake in demonstrations or action - but were sufficiently angry they didn't speak up or condemn.

Had there been the equivalent of the cameras in the poll tax situation - which are not just enforcement devices but visible symbols - then we would have seen a similar situation where they would be targeted.

Problem for Mr Khan now is that if he backs down then his ULEZ is going to be remembered as the equivalent of that poll tax moment. If he doesn't then if this builds then there is the issue of the boroughs and the civil disobedience / vandalism and unrest and lack of calm that goes on for a long time. I doubt he planned for any of this. And I suspect that he and his peers in Labour are more used to think of the Conservatives as being the only likely recipients of this sort of backlash - which makes the poll tax analogy more stark.

The Poll Tax would have been unavoidable.

ULEZ affects only a small proportion of the population, and even they can avoid it (though it involves some inconvenience or cost).

It's no different to duty on cigarettes - it doesn't affect everyone, and it's easily avoidable... just a matter of personal choice.

 

[Darrell]

And, if he backs down now, then all those people who already replaced their much-loved old Diesel cars in anticipation of the ULEZ extension, will feel cheated....

No. They’ll be able to hold their heads high and be proud that they’ve bought an eco friendly vehicle.

 

[markjay]

No. They’ll be able to hold their heads high and be proud that they’ve bought an eco friendly vehicle.

Well, yes, there's always that....

 

[ChipChop]

Your argument is not with me - I was simply responding to your own post that said that 'Life expectancy in the UK is increasing'...

I took your post at face value - and assuming you're correct, then yes, it's an excellent result.

Life expectancy has been increasing for the last 40 years in the UK. The anomaly to this long term trend is the unusually high number of excess deaths in the last 2 years which we all know the reasons for. In short highly questionable political decisions (covid policy and ulez policy) made with little to no consideration of the wider consequences.

 

[clk320x]

Life expectancy has been increasing for the last 40 years in the UK. The anomaly to this long term trend is the unusually high number of excess deaths in the last 2 years which we all know the reasons for. In short highly questionable political decisions (covid policy and ulez policy) made with little to no consideration of the wider consequences.

Life expectancy has been increasing because of various factors such as medical care improvements.

Certain respiratory conditions related to air pollutants such as Asthma can often be effectively managed and don’t necessarily lead to massive life expectancy reduction, does that mean that we shouldn’t target one of the causes of the disease? or is it more important that someone shouldn’t need to replace their Euro 5 Merc - and others should simply deal with the effects of disease?

 

[poormansporsche]

It's all a crock of £hit really, for or against. It's just not worth arguing over

There are so many variables and conflicting interested parties, it's is a "Metropolis" after all.

But I do often laugh to myself as I'm sitting in the van in a traffic jam belching out fumes straight into the gardens of the houses on the South Circular, whilst gazing over the Covid boxes into the traffic free utopias of the LTNs, Traffic Jams that were a heck of a lot smaller before the LTNs. I'm pretty sure that removal of all car "discouragement" schemes would have a substantially better effect on pollution levels than any ULEZ scheme. But that just doesn't fit with the long term car free ideal of the city.

 

[markjay]

... the unusually high number of excess deaths in the last 2 years which we all know the reasons for...

Care to spell it out for me...?

 

[Darrell]

Life expectancy has been increasing because of various factors such as medical care improvements.

Certain respiratory conditions related to air pollutants such as Asthma can often be effectively managed and don’t necessarily lead to massive life expectancy reduction, does that mean that we shouldn’t target one of the causes of the disease? or is it more important that someone shouldn’t need to replace their Euro 5 Merc - and others should simply deal with the effects of disease?

My brother is an Asthma sufferer. He’s run the London Marathon 16 times, does a park run every week, cycles around 150 kms a week and swims 1km 4 times a week.

 

[clk320x]

My brother is an Asthma sufferer. He’s run the London Marathon 16 times, does a park run every week, cycles around 150 kms a week and swims 1km 4 times a week.

Good for him? Like I said, some conditions such as Asthma can be managed. But - the incidence of them can also be directly linked to air pollution. Are you suggesting your brother wouldn’t NOT have Asthma to begin with?

Of course some of the other diseases linked to NoX and PM2.5 have much bleaker outcomes and can’t be managed anywhere nearly as effectively.

 

[ChipChop]

Life expectancy has been increasing because of various factors such as medical care improvements.

Certain respiratory conditions related to air pollutants such as Asthma can often be effectively managed and don’t necessarily lead to massive life expectancy reduction, does that mean that we shouldn’t target one of the causes of the disease? or is it more important that someone shouldn’t need to replace their Euro 5 Merc - and others should simply deal with the effects of disease?

Indeed medical advances such as the invention of the nebulizer share responsibility for the trend in increased life expectancy in the UK. An obvious fact.

Khan's extended ULEZ will have a disproportionate financial impact on people with low incomes, the disabled and young families. That will negatively effect the health of those demographics. The most in need being penalised.

Where is the cost versus benefit study showing the marginal, at best, air quality improvements ULEZ claims are of greater benefit than allowing those most in need to continue to travel in an affordable manner?

 

[markjay]

...I'm pretty sure that removal of all car "discouragement" schemes would have a substantially better effect on pollution levels than any ULEZ scheme...

Prising people out of their cars does indeed seem like an impossible task.... and before you blame the state of public transport, I can tell you that at least in London some people will take the longer and more expensive option and drive their cars into the city centre because 'public transport is for plebs'. I kid you not.

 

[Darrell]

Prising people out of their cars does indeed seem like an impossible task.... and before you blame the state of public transport, I can tell you that at least in London some people will take the longer and more expensive option and drive their cars into the city centre because 'public transport is for plebs'. I kid you not.

I’m not sure that ‘public transport is for plebs’ but I’ve seen my fare share of plebs on it. Mind you though, the road has its fair share of plebeian drivers too.

 

[poormansporsche]

Prising people out of their cars does indeed seem like an impossible task.... and before you blame the state of public transport, I can tell you that at least in London some people will take the longer and more expensive option and drive their cars into the city centre because 'public transport is for plebs'. I kid you not.

I'm a working class snob

 

[ChipChop]

Care to spell it out for me...?

Shutting down the NHS for a protracted period. Delayed treatment for undiagnosed conditions various. Greatly increased adverse reactions to medication (see Western Australia).

Little to do with what comes out of the tailpipe of a diesel passenger car Mr Khan.

 

[markjay]

Shutting down the NHS for a protracted period. Delayed treatment for undiagnosed conditions various. Greatly increased adverse reactions to medication (see Western Australia).

Little to do with what comes out of the tailpipe of a diesel passenger car Mr Khan.

Or with that little crown-shaped pathogen... right?

 

[markjay]

I’m not sure that ‘public transport is for plebs’ but I’ve seen my fare share of plebs on it. Mind you though, the road has its fair share of plebeian drivers too.

Yes but when you're in your own car, you don't have to rub shoulders with the great unwashed......