The EV fact thread

[markjay]

Seriously? You are likening the much cheaper to build than EV ICE to a Rolex?
ICE still has an advantage over EV that is absolutely objective not subjective. Ease of refuelling. There are places in the world that will always have use ICE for that reason. A clear and incontrovertible advantage.
Another advantage is light weight. For say a sports car (or anything that needs to carry a decent payload) the EV cannot and will not be a contender. ICE doesn't require the rebuilding of infrastructure merely to cope with the weight of EVs. That's a CO2 advantage to ICE.
Admittedly these aren't issues that are the most pressing for cars, but to claim absolute superiority for EV over ICE is disingenuous.

Yes, seriously - but my post was specifically about ICE engine vs EV motor.

And an electric motor - even with the magnet - is lighter than a comparable ICE engine.

Battery, refuelling, etc - all true.

 

[190]

As an Engineer I already had a view of hydrogen transport as gimmicky bit player but the Hydrogen fuel cell inefficiency has completed the picture. I'm left with the conclusion that too much of the transition to zero emission transport is being driven by virtue signalling rather than science or pragmatism. So the hydrogen fuel cell has zero emissions written on the back - big deal, so does a an electric bus which cost less to buy and a study has shown 2.3 times cheaper to run than a fuel cell bus.

So why did TFL buy 20 hydrogen buses at £10.9 million if they make no financial sense at all.

"The Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, will today launch England’s first ever hydrogen double decker buses, marking another major step towards making the bus fleet zero-emission"

How is that anything but virtue signalling when they already had 500 electric buses on the fleet. I suppose such idiotic decisions are to be expected from SadIQ but really how are we supposed to have faith in the zero emission transition when nonsense like this goes on. I can't take the eco zealots seriously when they waste so much of the publics money just for a headline.

The new hydrogen buses more expensive than Ferraris taking to London's streets

 

[BTB 500]

As an Engineer I already had a view of hydrogen transport as gimmicky bit player but the Hydrogen fuel cell inefficiency has completed the picture.

I think the figure of 38% mentioned earlier is way out. From a quick Google the one in the 2016 (1st generation) Toyota Mirai was measured at 66% efficiency, with total vehicle efficiency at 62% ... significantly better than an equivalent hybrid:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0360319919339618

Toyota's 2nd generation (current) fuel cell is supposedly better - BMW are buying these for their iX5 Hydrogen.

TFL were working on fuel cell buses long before Sadiq Khan was involved - see the picture of the 53 plate (2003) one I posted. I'm sure they're not cheap, but I suspect BEV ones and even the diesel hybrid Routemasters are also "more expensive than Ferraris".

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I’ve been generally avoiding this thread over the last few months - doesn’t seem that too much has changed!

People just seem so polarised on opinion, almost delighting in facts and figures to support a desire to see EVs not be a success?

And as arguments against gradually fade - be it that of initial cost, availability of chargers or whatever it seems as though the goalposts of the argument are moved.

I still don’t own or drive an EV, but I don’t have an issue with them either. What’s the problem?

Haven’t seen any hydrogen filling stations recently or hydrogen cars driving about, how are they doing btw?

Perhaps there should be a monthly round up by someone on here to avoid having to read through all 271 pages and almost 5.5k posts

Ditto. It makes me laugh too much, often snorting coffee out through my nose, especially as people demonstrate their failure to understand the raw numbers involved.

“The EU’s driving towards a target for whole year sales in 2024 of such and such so we’re failing if the installed base isn’t that high already.”

“After nearly doubling the cost of new vehicles as a result of increased interest rates, supply chain shortages, fuel price hikes, deleted economy spec ICE vehicles, and then adding uncertainty about new technology, as EVs are now catching fire on every high street, it seems average vehicle age has increased.”

 

[NJSS]

Source: Jaguar I-Pace Owners Told To Park Outside After 3 Fires Involving Previously Recalled EVs | Carscoops

 

[markjay]

View attachment 160565


Source: Jaguar I-Pace Owners Told To Park Outside After 3 Fires Involving Previously Recalled EVs | Carscoops

How come I am not surprised..... JLR have been populating the bottom entry in the list in almost every car reliability survey conducted in the past 5 years.

 

[ALFAitalia]

I think the figure of 38% mentioned earlier is way out. From a quick Google the one in the 2016 (1st generation) Toyota Mirai was measured at 66% efficiency, with total vehicle efficiency at 62% ... significantly better than an equivalent hybrid:

View attachment 160549

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0360319919339618

Toyota's 2nd generation (current) fuel cell is supposedly better - BMW are buying these for their iX5 Hydrogen.

TFL were working on fuel cell buses long before Sadiq Khan was involved - see the picture of the 53 plate (2003) one I posted. I'm sure they're not cheap, but I suspect BEV ones and even the diesel hybrid Routemasters are also "more expensive than Ferraris".

That does not include the losses from making power onto hydrogen in the first place. My figure did.

 

[190]

I think the figure of 38% mentioned earlier is way out. From a quick Google the one in the 2016 (1st generation) Toyota Mirai was measured at 66% efficiency, with total vehicle efficiency at 62% ... significantly better than an equivalent hybrid:

View attachment 160549

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0360319919339618

Toyota's 2nd generation (current) fuel cell is supposedly better - BMW are buying these for their iX5 Hydrogen.

TFL were working on fuel cell buses long before Sadiq Khan was involved - see the picture of the 53 plate (2003) one I posted. I'm sure they're not cheap, but I suspect BEV ones and even the diesel hybrid Routemasters are also "more expensive than Ferraris".

That's only one part of the efficiency equation. We can talk about theory all we like but it's what happens in the real world that counts.
If anyone has conflicting evidence that suggests Hydrogen fuel cell buses are cheaper to buy and run than EV's then I'd love to see it. In the absence of that evidence why is anyone paying the higher purchase and operating costs other than for virtue signalling reasons. In old days we would have called that showing off and that wasn't a virtue.

Real-world figures | Hydrogen buses cost 2.3 times more to run per km than battery electric ones, says Italian study | Hydrogen Insight

Battery-electric vs fuel cell buses? New study found FCEB running costs are 2.3 times higher than BEBs - Sustainable Bus

 

[BTB 500]

That does not include the losses from making power onto hydrogen in the first place. My figure did.

OK, but that's nothing to do with the fuel cell itself ... and what generation process are those losses based on (e.g. almost all the hydrogen produced in the US comes from natural gas reforming, not electrolysis)?

 

[BTB 500]

In the absence of that evidence why is anyone paying the higher purchase and operating costs other than for virtue signalling reasons.

Being cheap isn't necessarily the whole picture. Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles have some advantages over BEVs e.g.

Longer range
Faster 'refuelling'
Not affected by cold weather
Lighter
etc.

Lots of countries and cities are using or trialling them (it's not just TFL), and quite a few companies are building them including:

Toyota
Hyundai
Caetano
Mercedes-Benz
Van Hool
Wrightbus

But perhaps they are all just showing off

 

[ALFAitalia]

No much more range... many only about the same as an EV... the Toyota that's on the box at the moment is not bad at about 450....but hardly a massive improvement over a good EV.
Way to much time, money and infrastructure been put into EVs to go to a far less efficient higher carbon fuel system now. Maybe one day..... but not in my lifetime.

 

[BTB 500]

No much more range... many only about the same as an EV... the Toyota that's on the box at the moment is not bad at about 450....but hardly a massive improvement over a good EV.
Way to much time, money and infrastructure been put into EVs to go to a far less efficient higher carbon fuel system now. Maybe one day..... but not in my lifetime.

Battery power is OK in smaller vehicles but doesn't scale up very well to large ones. If you compare current BEV and hydrogen fuel cell buses from Wright (same layout, seating capacity and maximum gross weight) the fuel cell one has more than two and a half times the range (640 miles vs 250).

Fuel cell:

Single Deck bus | Zero Emission Vehicles | Wrightbus

Explore the future of sustainable transportation with our Single Deck bus from Wrightbus – a pioneering solution in zero-emission vehicles. Experience eco-friendly journeys without compromising on efficiency and comfort.

wrightbus.com

BEV:

Single Deck Electric Bus | Electric Vehicles | Wrightbus

Step into the future of urban mobility with our Single Deck Electric Bus from Wrightbus. Combining cutting-edge technology and eco-conscious design, our Electric vehicles redefine sustainable transportation.

wrightbus.com

 

[markjay]

The limiting factor for EVs at current is the battery - if we can make the battery cheaper, smaller, lighter, and with longer range, then the EV is sorted.

The limiting factor for Fuel Cell cars (which, technically speaking, are also electric vehicles) is the Hydrogen production process - at current, it requires a considerable amount of energy, produces CO2, and it's expensive. Which is a shame, given that Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe.

 

[ALFAitalia]

Battery power is OK in smaller vehicles but doesn't scale up very well to large ones. If you compare current BEV and hydrogen fuel cell buses from Wright (same layout, seating capacity and maximum gross weight) the fuel cell one has more than two and a half times the range (640 miles vs 250).

Fuel cell:

Single Deck bus | Zero Emission Vehicles | Wrightbus

Explore the future of sustainable transportation with our Single Deck bus from Wrightbus – a pioneering solution in zero-emission vehicles. Experience eco-friendly journeys without compromising on efficiency and comfort.

wrightbus.com

BEV:

Single Deck Electric Bus | Electric Vehicles | Wrightbus

Step into the future of urban mobility with our Single Deck Electric Bus from Wrightbus. Combining cutting-edge technology and eco-conscious design, our Electric vehicles redefine sustainable transportation.

wrightbus.com

And the average city ( where emissions matter) bus does between 100 and 200 miles per day and sits on the depot at night.... where it could be charging. So what's the point of a 640 mile range?

 

[BTB 500]

And the average city ( where emissions matter) bus does between 100 and 200 miles per day and sits on the depot at night.... where it could be charging. So what's the point of a 640 mile range?

The point is that in cold weather a battery gives significantly less range. You also consume a lot of extra energy heating the interior of a large vehicle, further reducing the range. This may still be OK on a bus doing short local routes at low speeds and not covering many miles in a day. But not all buses/coaches are used that way. Suppose you're operating an inter-city service cruising at motorway speeds - there is no large BEV that can do this. If you want (or need) to produce zero emissions the only technology currently capable of doing it is hydrogen fuel cell.

As I said battery technology does't upscale very well. To get that 'up to' 250 mile range the EV bus would likely be carrying over 3.5 tonnes of battery (575 kWh in multiple packs - a single 100 kWh Tesla battery weighs 625 kg). And 3.5 hours to rapid charge on a 150 kW charger - fine if you only need to charge once a day (overnight) but not very practical otherwise. Refuelling time for the fuel cell version is given as under 10 minutes.

 

[BTB 500]

The limiting factor for EVs at current is the battery - if we can make the battery cheaper, smaller, lighter, and with longer range, then the EV is sorted.

Absolutely. But if you need to go zero emissions with all large commercial vehicles in the short/medium term the battery technology we have can't do it. Hydrogen can ... it could even work in ships etc.

 

[Bellow]

The limiting factor for EVs at current is the battery - if we can make the battery cheaper, smaller, lighter, and with longer range, then the EV is sorted.

Here we go again - if, if, if....

The limiting factor for Fuel Cell cars (which, technically speaking, are also electric vehicles) is the Hydrogen production process - at current, it requires a considerable amount of energy, produces CO2, and it's expensive. Which is a shame, given that Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe.

Ignores the amount of very expensive materials required to construct a FC and, repeats one of the shibboleths of hydrogen evangelists. Unless of course the range of a FCV is to be improved to the point it can roam the universe - all of it - to refuel. 'Hydrogen as the most abundant element' - how does that even feature in a discussion about vehicles on planet earth where hydrogen is neither abundant or storable?

 

[markjay]

Here we go again - if, if, if....

Not 'if', but 'when'.

Ignores the amount of very expensive materials required to construct a FC and, repeats one of the shibboleths of hydrogen evangelists. Unless of course the range of a FCV is to be improved to the point it can roam the universe - all of it - to refuel. 'Hydrogen as the most abundant element' - how does that even feature in a discussion about vehicles on planet earth where hydrogen is neither abundant or storable?

There's little difference between FuelCell-powered car and a battery-powered car, they are both electric vehicles, albeit using different methods of storing electricity.

Hydrogen being burnt in an ICE engines is great, but it's like inventing a 'better horse' in 1930..... the underlying technology will disappear from private cars and LGVs altogether.

 

[Bellow]

Not 'if', but 'when'.

Or, maybe never. You cannot discount the idea that current batteries are as good as they'll ever be. Decades of research and still no cure for cancer...

There's little difference between FuelCell-powered car and a battery-powered car, they are both electric vehicles, albeit using different methods of storing electricity.

More disinformation. FCV do NOT store electricity - they generate it. In engineering, facts matter.

Hydrogen being burnt in an ICE engines is great, but it's like inventing a 'better horse' in 1930..... the underlying technology will disappear from private cars and LGVs altogether.

Hydrogen in an ICE is anything but great. research the topic and you'd know that. In engineering, facts matter.

 

[clk320x]

Scientists make breakthrough discovery with potential to solve major problem in EV batteries: 'This approach is a game-changer'

"A foundation for future innovations."

www.yahoo.com