EV's and battery damage & other woes means I wont buy one

[Bellow]

Factor in the range though .... about 500,000 miles plus a few lunar orbits?

Remove all of the air from motorways for the same effect for wheeled vehicles. See, hydrogen is so easy....

 

[Bellow]

Exactly. As I said, perfect for a vehicle that only drives a short distance before returning to base. (The bus garage)

When they park up for the night - typically six hours - that's a perfect time to fuel them up in five minutes.

So battery recharging in a commercial context is time consuming.

Other's will point out that the low road speed means that they don't consume much "juice."

Fuel cells are great for these kinds of commercial vehicle, which is why so much money has been invested in this tech over the last few decades.

Don't forget the regen braking - not a feature of motorway long haul haulage.

 

[Will]

My own thoughts are, that technology that is discovered and doesn’t really take off after a relatively long period of time is a reasonable indicator that it isn’t well received. If they’ve trialled this on buses two decades ago and it was a good idea why are most buses nowadays not powered in this way?

BEV tech is improving rapidly, and the fact that they’re even selling in increasingly larger amounts and the infrastructure is growing exponentially is a good indicator that they’re going to take over from ICE vehicles in the main and likely to be around for a while yet.

The fact is if you’re buying a new car today or tomorrow, you can buy an EV and charge it at home, or at work, or at the shops, or the gym, or a lamppost or even at a EV charger service station.

The ranges on offer are becoming more comparable to ICE vehicles as time goes on and the charging times are getting better too.

Time will tell but I can’t see hydrogen taking off as quickly as EV, but I don’t see ICE being the majority in years to come either so the ‘do nothing’ attitude of some die-hard diesel/petrol fans is not going to work

 

[Ted]

Here's a hydrogen powered vehicle.

View attachment 151380

I thought they used kerosene and liquid oxygen?
Could be wrong - was all over 50 years ago.

 

[Dryce]

My own thoughts are, that technology that is discovered and doesn’t really take off after a relatively long period of time is a reasonable indicator that it isn’t well received. If they’ve trialled this on buses two decades ago and it was a good idea why are most buses nowadays not powered in this way?

BEV tech is improving rapidly, and the fact that they’re even selling in increasingly larger amounts and the infrastructure is growing exponentially is a good indicator that they’re going to take over from ICE vehicles in the main and likely to be around for a while yet.

Is BEV tech improving rapidly?

I would say the driver for BEV buses isn't about actual economics - it's about relative economics within the ecosystem that increasingly imposes regulatory and political constraints that widen the economic constraints.

On that basis we could see FCEV more widely adopted as the focus shifts from the priority of urban emissions to wider suburban and extra urban emissions. Vehicles such as buses are depot based and have scheduled operating times and routes. That would make takeup of alternative zero or low emission technology more viable than other vehicle types because the infrastructure is containable.

 

[Will]

Is BEV tech improving rapidly?

I would say the driver for BEV buses isn't about actual economics - it's about relative economics within the ecosystem that increasingly imposes regulatory and political constraints that widen the economic constraints.

On that basis we could see FCEV more widely adopted as the focus shifts from the priority of urban emissions to wider suburban and extra urban emissions. Vehicles such as buses are depot based and have scheduled operating times and routes. That would make takeup of alternative zero or low emission technology more viable than other vehicle types because the infrastructure is containable.

Two decades ago EVs were a very rare sight on the roads, what were the choices back then - G-whizz or something?

Nowadays you can buy luxury and performance EVs from many of the mainstream manufacturers - Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Audi etc. Tesla are selling pretty well too considering they are a relative newcomer in the car industry

Performance is not just on par but exceeds many ICE vehicles within this time (and twenty years ago you’d have laughed at them)

Range has improved to multiples of hundreds of miles.

Charging times have reduced significantly.

Battery tech has improved significantly.

The fact that you can buy 2/4/7 seaters, sports cars, vans, SUVs etc shows that there is quite an appetite for vehicles using this tech.

Sure, there will be some pros and cons to all tech and options out there, and nothing is perfect but they seem to be moving in the right direction.

It may well be that for specific use cases there are other options that are worth exploring (and maybe that could be hydrogen for HGVs or buses, who knows) but it seems as though many private motorists will look elsewhere to buck a trend just to be different.

They probably bought into HD-DVD, had square satellites and Betamax too

 

[JHS]

They probably bought into HD-DVD, had square satellites and Betamax too

Why would they not have bought into them? What was wrong with them?
Hindsight is 20:20.

 

[Will]

Why would they not have bought into them? What was wrong with them?

Betamax didn’t have the deal for home video rentals AFAIK (a bit like infrastructure for charging in that regard).

Wasn’t popular enough and they failed. How did you watch a film borrowed from a friend if they had VHS?

You can add Laserdisc and minidisc to the list of obsolete tech.

LPG seemed like a good idea a few years back. I had an E55K that was converted to run on gas @ 50p/litre (few years back). Ran great on both petrol or LPG and the engine was and strong with no issues and 150k+ miles when I sold it (and around 50k of that was on gas). But it hasn’t taken off and was unlikely to do so. You have to accept defeat sometimes even when you think you are right!

How many LPG cars are being built or converted these days?

Let’s see how many of us on the forum will be driving hydrogen cars in the next five years and how many of us move towards EV. I know where my money would be

 

[BTB 500]

Is BEV tech improving rapidly?

Li Ion cell technology is over 20 years old ... I don't think it's improving significantly now. Today's longer range EVs are typically just bigger and/or heavier in order to carry more cells (which the ever popular SUV/crossover form factor lends itself to, of course). The main improvement seems to be rolling out ever more powerful chargers to deal with the increasing battery sizes. The oft mentioned '15 minute top up' would give you a 10% charge at best (after charging losses) if you rock up to a 50 kW outlet with a 100 kWh battery.

 

[tode]

Betamax didn’t have the deal for home video rentals AFAIK (a bit like infrastructure for charging in that regard).

Wasn’t popular enough and they failed. How did you watch a film borrowed from a friend if they had VHS?

You can add Laserdisc and minidisc to the list of obsolete tech.

LPG seemed like a good idea a few years back. I had an E55K that was converted to run on gas @ 50p/litre (few years back). Ran great on both petrol or LPG and the engine was and strong with no issues and 150k+ miles when I sold it (and around 50k of that was on gas). But it hasn’t taken off and was unlikely to do so. You have to accept defeat sometimes even when you think you are right!

How many LPG cars are being built or converted these days?

Let’s see how many of us on the forum will be driving hydrogen cars in the next five years and how many of us move towards EV. I know where my money would be

My money is already on hydrogen . . .

 

[Dryce]

The fact that you can buy 2/4/7 seaters, sports cars, vans, SUVs etc shows that there is quite an appetite for vehicles using this tech.

The prices on the likes of the EQC look like the appetite may have some current constraints.

And underlying this is the question about smaller vehicles. The 'good' EVs are larger and heavier. We really don't see much in the way of decent range smaller cheaper vehicles.

Hydrogen is way way behind in terms of products, infrastructure, and market. So for now it's really about BEVs and PHEVs with hybrids sort of in the middle not sure where they are at. But the apparent reduction in appetite for BEVs maybe means the manufacturers will be stressed and forced to innovate more quickly - or that there will be an opportunity for FCEVs to gain some sort of foothold and critical mass.

We live in frustratingly interesting times.

 

[BTB 500]

Let’s see how many of us on the forum will be driving hydrogen cars in the next five years and how many of us move towards EV. I know where my money would be

If we want everything moved by zero emission trucks & vans in the near future then there will have to be a hydrogen infrastructure. Once that's in place the fuel cell car will become a viable option for anyone who wants something smaller/lighter with long range and quick fill ups. For many BEV will still work fine - nobody is suggesting they'll all disappear in favour of FCEVs. As mentioned TfL are buying both fuel cell and pure EV buses, for different usage patterns.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Let’s see how many of us on the forum will be driving hydrogen cars in the next five years and how many of us move towards EV. I know where my money would be

Let's see how many of us on the forum will be driving hydrogen cars in the next TEN - TWENTY years, and how many will have moved towards EV.

I know where my money would be. (And it's in the same place as yours: BEV's, not that there's one that I want to buy yet)

Betamax is a good comparison. (I was first mover on this in 1978. It was a great technical innovation, with greater practicality over both the Video Disk and VHS. Why did it fail - miserably, globally in the 1980's? Because it didn't have the volume, price, distribution and pre-recorded content. So VHS triumphed. And then that was superseded by DVD in the Noughties. And then that was superseded by streaming in the 20-tens. And then that.....

The obsession was fast refuelling is an odd special interest, by people who simply don't understand the economics of the whole distribution process, nor the benefits of charging cheaply from the Grid. The industry has been sniffing around FCEV's for decades as a solution for heavyweight commercial / truck fuel, but no-one serious in the industry believes small cheap fuel cells are going to be around any time soon.

 

[Will]

Let's see how many of us on the forum will be driving hydrogen cars in the next TEN - TWENTY years, and how many will have moved towards EV.

I know where my money would be. (And it's in the same place as yours: BEV's, not that there's one that I want to buy yet)

Betamax is a good comparison. (I was first mover on this in 1978. It was a great technical innovation, with greater practicality over both the Video Disk and VHS. Why did it fail - miserably, globally in the 1980's? Because it didn't have the volume, price, distribution and pre-recorded content. So VHS triumphed. And then that was superseded by DVD in the Noughties. And then that was superseded by streaming in the 20-tens. And then that.....

The obsession was fast refuelling is an odd special interest, by people who simply don't understand the economics of the whole distribution process, nor the benefits of charging cheaply from the Grid. The industry has been sniffing around this for decades as a solution for heavyweight commercial / truck fuel, but no-one serious in the industry believes small cheap fuel cells are going to be around any time soon.

I have to admit, I struggle to understand the obsession with refuelling/charge time.

It plays into people’s familiarity of ‘filling up’ as they do currently. Because you can’t refuel an ICE car when it’s parked, which is what most of them spend the majority of their time doing.

So why does it matter then that a hydrogen car can be refuelled in 3 minutes?

When you can currently buy an EV with a range of 300+ miles (more than the majority of forum members will have probably driven in a day in the last year)

I filled my GL63 up on Christmas Eve, not because I had any long journeys planned, but because it’s a pain in the a$$ driving it to Tesco’s or Shell to fill up with fuel. And it’s easier to stick a full tank in than it is to drive there every 100 miles if I was to stick £50 in or whatever.

If I could plug in at home knowing that it’s good to go whenever I need it, that would be great.

But there’s no EVs that offer what this does for the same value currently, and I’m not worried about fuel costs so it suits my needs best.

It doesn’t mean I can’t see the future in EVs though.

 

[grober]

Betamax didn’t have the deal for home video rentals AFAIK (a bit like infrastructure for charging in that regard).

Wasn’t popular enough and they failed. How did you watch a film borrowed from a friend if they had VHS?

You can add Laserdisc and minidisc to the list of obsolete tech.

LPG seemed like a good idea a few years back. I had an E55K that was converted to run on gas @ 50p/litre (few years back). Ran great on both petrol or LPG and the engine was and strong with no issues and 150k+ miles when I sold it (and around 50k of that was on gas). But it hasn’t taken off and was unlikely to do so. You have to accept defeat sometimes even when you think you are right!

How many LPG cars are being built or converted these days?

Let’s see how many of us on the forum will be driving hydrogen cars in the next five years and how many of us move towards EV. I know where my money would be

Some further [HISTORICAL] LPG discussion https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=35465

 

[Will]

Some further [HISTORICAL] LPG discussion https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=35465

My old E55K was converted by the previous owner (a forum member who lived in Scotland and had LPG on his other vehicles too, I believe he covered about 20k PA). The cost of the conversion was £1700. It wasn’t the prettiest under the bonnet but to be honest it was a very good install and worked superbly and was properly certified. I spoke to the installer at one point and he seemed to know his stuff and had a good reputation online from what I could establish

It was almost imperceptible as to whether it was running on LPG or unleaded petrol, and in warm weather it started straight up on gas without needing to warm up on petrol first.

I had the car for four years and the only thing I did was replace the filter and one solenoid (front lock off valve for gas to the engine bay)

Less than £20 to fill up (small torroidial tank in the un-used spare wheel well) and it did about 160 miles on gas.

I didn’t buy the car because of the LPG conversion and it wouldn't have been worth doing myself but it was a bonus IMHO to run a 400hp+ car for the same sort of fuel costs as most dirty diesels.

I think it did put some people off the car when came to sell it, but I had no trouble with it and have great memories of it, superb car

 

[markjay]

So battery recharging in a commercial context is time consuming.


Don't forget the regen braking - not a feature of motorway long haul haulage.

Normally, no, but when going downhill the car will use the recuperation to charge the battery, so it depends on the road.

This is from a short trip I did over the weekend, part of the road was going downhill, you can see that the average consumption was very good (and we're in winter and using heating etc), obviously it's not 'typical' consumption but it does highlight the point that EV consumption figures can vary considerably depending on a variety of factors.

You can see that the computer understands this and is only predicting 3.75 mi/kWh (233/85%) which is more reasonable for this time of year than the 8.5 mi/kWh average from the last journey.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Much as we all love our Mercs, the majority of the cars sold in the UK are VW Golf sized or smaller. (A / B / C segment, to talk "technical")

Lightweight cars, driven small mileages. These aren't the folks doing 500 miles a week - generally. Cars easily charged on driveways, in car parks, or quickly on commercial chargers.

 

[Dryce]

Much as we all love our Mercs, the majority of the cars sold in the UK are VW Golf sized or smaller. (A / B / C segment, to talk "technical")

Lightweight cars, driven small mileages. These aren't the folks doing 500 miles a week - generally. Cars easily charged on driveways, in car parks, or quickly on commercial chargers.

I think this is a rather forum-centric view.

Cars such as the Golf, A-Class, Focus are workhorses for many and can rack up huge mileages.

And there are also plenty of larger cars that do short journeys and low mileages.

Not long ago a local dealership was offering a batch of MG BEVs at low mileage and at about £22K and they were being marked as reserved within hours of being listed - and gone in a day or two as they were presumably sold.

If there was a Focus EV with a 300 mile range offered at the same price as a Focus ICE then I think Ford would be mainly selling Focus EVs.

 

[Bellow]

I thought they used kerosene and liquid oxygen?
Could be wrong - was all over 50 years ago.

We are both correct...

''Several different types of fuel were used on Apollo 11, and multiple rockets and engines were used to launch it and subsequently propel and maneuver it and the lunar lander through space and to the moon and back. The Saturn V rocket that launched it into space used liquid oxygen, liquid hydrogen, and kerosene.''

Source: Apollo space missions which fuel in rockets - Google Search