EV's and battery damage & other woes means I wont buy one

[tode]

Air Liquide (a company that doesn't often get things wrong) is going all-out with hydrogen production.

They run the world's largest production site: HYDROGEN IN CANADA

 

[ALFAitalia]

Hydrogen can NEVER be as efficient or green as a BEV car......its just a physical and chemical impossibility.

 

[tode]

As you may know, the major problem with electricity (and hence BEVs) is that it is very difficult and costly to stock.
Hydrogen, on the other hand is relatively easy to stock, and is certainly "Greener" (whatever that may mean ) than batteries for cars when produced by renewable electricity (as in the Air Liquide video above).
I don't go in for Sweeping Statements and global predictions, but I have a feeling that we'll soon be looking at old batteries as we now see nuclear waste . . .

 

[Bellow]

Hydrogen, on the other hand is relatively easy to stock,

Research storage of hydrogen and you'll find the reverse is true.
100kg tank weight for 1kg of hydrogen storage with steel tanks. Toyota improves on that - just don't ask the cost of 95kg of carbon fibre tank. A huge amount of energy is required to compress to pressures for those tanks even. Liquefaction requires cooling to very close to absolute zero (minus 273C). It doesn't store.

 

[BTB 500]

Hydrogen can NEVER be as efficient or green as a BEV car......its just a physical and chemical impossibility.

As above there are some big questions about how green the production and eventual disposal of lithium batteries in large numbers is. A BEV vehicle is also heavier than a fuel cell one, which reduces the overall efficiency. But if/when you have surplus renewable electricity from solar / wind / tidal / geothermal / fusion / whatever then efficiency becomes less important anyway ... it's emissions that matter. Then of course BEV technology simply doesn't work for all applications (yet, or maybe even ever). As mentioned it doesn't really suit large / heavy road vehicles (trucks, vans, coaches, etc.). It certainly doesn't work for cargo ships, or airliners, or air freight.

Hydrogen fuel cells won't replace pure battery power but will be a better option for some applications. They will co-exist.

 

[tode]

Research storage of hydrogen and you'll find the reverse is true.
100kg tank weight for 1kg of hydrogen storage with steel tanks. Toyota improves on that - just don't ask the cost of 95kg of carbon fibre tank. A huge amount of energy is required to compress to pressures for those tanks even. Liquefaction requires cooling to very close to absolute zero (minus 273C). It doesn't store.

So these don't exist ?

 

[BTB 500]

So these don't exist ?

They were even around (as single-deckers) 20 years ago
*

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

So these don't exist ?

View attachment 151374

Perfect example of an FCEV that drives only a short distance and which returns to base every night.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Surely everyone knows that fuel cell EV's have been around for several decades?

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[JHS]

Perfect example of an FCEV that drives only a short distance and which returns to base every night.

Wasn't that an argument for low range BEVs in cities?

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Wasn't that an argument for low range BEVs in cities?

Nope. It's the argument for short range BEV's, in any environment.

Perfect for my next door neighbour, who has put 6,000 miles on her BMW X3 over the six years that she's owned it. And for my friends, whose second car, a 2019 Golf, has done 3,000 miles since 2019

150 mile range sat on the driveway every morning. Topped up from a 3 pin plug.

 

[Dryce]

So these don't exist ?

They exist - but they don't seem to be very common.

Our local green buses seem to be BEV type. there were a few fuel cell types on trial around a few years ago. These seemed to be rare and have disappeared. Actual deployment in noticeable numbers over the last two years seems to be based on a decision to go with BEV.

My guess is that the hydrogen fuel cell based vehicles make better sense on longer suburban and rural routings - but the emphasis of current procurement of EV buses is to lower emissions in urban areas - so the load and range characteristics of these vehicles is not such a great limitation for deployment on these kinds of routes.

 

[Will]

So these don't exist ?

View attachment 151374

They were even around (as single-deckers) 20 years ago
View attachment 151375*

Does anyone remember the bendy buses?

 

[Dryce]

150 mile range sat on the driveway every morning. Topped up from a 3 pin plug.

They work well in some rural areas for folks who mainly potter about within a given range of their local village. Local filling stations are not necessarily that local - and being able to top up on your own driveway is a tangible benefit.

A few years ago I tried to persuade one elderly relative I keep an eye on at a distance to go for a Zoe or Leaf but they simply wouldn't recognise the practical convenience.

 

[JHS]

Wiki, but still interesting

Fuel cells and storage[edit]​

Due to its clean-burning characteristics, hydrogen is a clean fuel alternative for the automotive industry. Hydrogen-based fuel could significantly reduce the emissions of greenhouse gases such as CO2, SO2 and NOx. Three problems for the use of hydrogen fuel cells (HFC) are efficiency, size, and safe onboard storage of the gas. Other major disadvantages of this emerging technology involve cost, operability and durability issues, which still need to be improved from the existing systems. To address these challenges, the use of nanomaterials has been proposed as an alternative option to the traditional hydrogen storage systems. The use of nanomaterials could provide a higher density system and increase the driving range towards the target set by the DOE at 300 miles. Carbonaceous materials such as carbon nanotube and metal hydrides are the main focus of research. They are currently being considered for onboard storage systems due to their versatility, multi-functionality, mechanical properties and low cost with respect to other alternatives.[137]

Other advantages of nanomaterials in fuel cells[edit]​

The introduction of nanomaterials in onboard hydrogen storage systems may be a major turning point in the automotive industry. However, storage is not the only aspect of the fuel cell to which nanomaterials may contribute. Different studies have shown that the transport and catalytic properties of Nafion membranes used in HFCs can be enhanced with TiO2/SnO2 nanoparticles.[137] The increased performance is caused by an improvement in hydrogen splitting kinetics due to catalytic activity of the nanoparticles. Furthermore, this system exhibits faster transport of protons across the cell which makes HFCs with nanoparticle composite membranes a promising alternative.

Another application of nanomaterials in water splitting has been introduced by a research group at Manchester Metropolitan University in the UK using screen-printed electrodes consisting of a graphene-like material.[138] Similar systems have been developed using photoelectrochemical techniques

 

[Bellow]

Here's a hydrogen powered vehicle.



If it were a truck - where would the cargo go? And, with tankage weighing one hundred times the fuel carried - what would be the usable payload of cargo?

 

[BTB 500]

Perfect example of an FCEV that drives only a short distance and which returns to base every night.

According to TfL the rationale for spending £12m on new fuel cell buses is:

Hydrogen buses can store more energy on board than equivalent buses, meaning they can be deployed on longer routes. They only need to be refuelled once a day for five minutes, making them much quicker to power up when compared with conventional battery-electric buses.

 

[Dryce]

Here's a hydrogen powered vehicle.

If it were a truck - where would the cargo go? And, with tankage weighing one hundred times the fuel carried - what would be the usable payload of cargo?

Factor in the range though .... about 500,000 miles plus a few lunar orbits?

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Here's a hydrogen powered vehicle.

View attachment 151380

If it were a truck - where would the cargo go? And, with tankage weighing one hundred times the fuel carried - what would be the usable payload of cargo?

Like the Toyota Mirai, it still has that "where can I fill this thing up" issue...

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

According to TfL the rationale for spending £12m on new fuel cell buses is:

Exactly. As I said, perfect for a vehicle that only drives a short distance before returning to base. (The bus garage) Typically less than 100 miles in the course of a day.

When they park up for six hours at night - that's a perfect time to top up a fuel cell EV in just five minutes.

Other's will point out that the low road speed means that they don't consume much "juice."

Fuel cells are great for these kinds of commercial vehicle, which is why so much money has been invested in this tech over the last few decades.

The caveat, still, is that FCEV buses still FAR more expensive than BEV's because of the fuel system. A difference that's likely to get bigger as China makes millions more BEV buses for use around the world. (If Trump and the EU will let them export into the West)

Real-world figures | Hydrogen buses cost 2.3 times more to run per km than battery electric ones, says Italian study | Hydrogen Insight

The relative energy inefficiency of fuel-cell vehicles is primarily responsible for the difference, report explains

www.hydrogeninsight.com