Time to change the work wagon

[flango]

Excellent post. I will be making similar choices when my 202 dies. However I will buy second hand.

I got two suprises reading this:

1) The negative about the Subaru diesel. They've had 10 years to develop this boxer diesel! Maybe the dealer is telling porkies - he just wants to sell what he's got?

2) Thought the Audi Quattro system was full-time 4WD with 3 differentials? Much more expensive than Haldex systems, and Quattro would be better for towing (e.g. up a steep wet pier with 1 ton of boat).

1. I've heard this from a few sources now cylinder heads appear to be a problem and some major failures are occuring at around the 24k mark although covered by warranty and I'm sure they will fix the problem it's still not good so I'm steering clear.

2. Both Audi and Kuga have full time four wheel drive both via the Haldex system below is the quote from Audi website

"Audi uses a Haldex® clutch to transmit power on its cars with transverse engines and quattro® permanent all-wheel drive. It has been specially adapted to this configuration and distributes the drive force variably between the front and rear wheels, preventing the build-up of stresses in the power train when cornering (like the Torsen® differential). The Haldex® clutch has advantages for all-wheel drive in conjunction with a transverse-mounted engines. A lot of different information is needed to distribute power to the wheels – for example, the engine speed, torque, wheel speed and anti-lock braking system (ABS) function.
*) Trademark of Haldex AB, Landskrona, Sweden "

 

[BTB 500]

2. Both Audi and Kuga have full time four wheel drive both via the Haldex system below is the quote from Audi website

"Audi uses a Haldex® clutch to transmit power on its cars with transverse engines and quattro® permanent all-wheel drive. It has been specially adapted to this configuration and distributes the drive force variably between the front and rear wheels, preventing the build-up of stresses in the power train when cornering (like the Torsen® differential). The Haldex® clutch has advantages for all-wheel drive in conjunction with a transverse-mounted engines. A lot of different information is needed to distribute power to the wheels – for example, the engine speed, torque, wheel speed and anti-lock braking system (ABS) function.
*) Trademark of Haldex AB, Landskrona, Sweden "

Hmm ... that's very confusing.

A Haldex setup isn't normally full-time 4WD. As the name implies, it's a CLUTCH that engages drive to the rear only when needed (in variable amounts). It cuts in very quickly, IIRC in something like 1/8 of a wheel rotation. My VW Sharan V6 4Motion was Haldex based.

Torsen is a mechanical differential that gives permanent 4WD. That's what Audi's original Quattros had.

 

[flango]

Hmm ... that's very confusing.

A Haldex setup isn't normally full-time 4WD. As the name implies, it's a CLUTCH that engages drive to the rear only when needed (in variable amounts). It cuts in very quickly, IIRC in something like 1/8 of a wheel rotation. My VW Sharan V6 4Motion was Haldex based.

Torsen is a mechanical differential that gives permanent 4WD. That's what Audi's original Quattros had.

My impression before these test drives was that a Haldex clutch system brought the rear wheels into play when extra grip was needed thus switching from front front wheel drive to 4 wheel drive? But both the Ford and Audi dealers told me the drive on both of these cars was permanent 4 wheel drive (just like my current Subaru) using the Haldex system. The ford is an easy one to sort as I have contacts with the Ford Rally Team so I'm sure they can find out for me, as to the Audi I can only go on what the website and dealer tells me, will report back on the Ford, thanks for the info though Bill much appreciated as it could affect my decision

 

[flango]

Just been talking to my Ford contact, Kuga is definitely permanent 4 wheel drive with torque being transferred between front and rear wheels using an electronic Haldex system official Ford driveline quote below.

DRIVE LINE
Drive: Ford AWD: All wheel drive 'Intelligent 4WD-System' with variable torque distribution, electronically controlled, torque distribution up to 50:50; with electronic Haldex system.

Transmission: Getrag Ford Durashift 6-speed (MMT6 - Modular Manual Transmission 6-Speed): manual, fully synchronised transmission with shift cable and dual driveshaft

 

[glojo]

Hi All well it's time to change the work wagon which is a Subaru Outback 3.0R (pics in gallery) so the weekend will be spent looking around the dealers. Just wondered what you thought I should look at as a replacement, requirements are. Has to be new, has to be 4x4, has to have performance and has to be big enough to haul round a family of 5. I would like to spend around £30k plus or minus a few £. Not considering the M class as had one before and can still feel the pain, so don't want to relive those nightmares,although I'm told they are alot better these days, but I'm still not going there. Let me know your thoughts as you might come up with something I haven't thought of many thanks

Good morning,
Have you considered the R-class?

Regards
John

 

[BTB 500]

Just been talking to my Ford contact, Kuga is definitely permanent 4 wheel drive with torque being transferred between front and rear wheels using an electronic Haldex system

Interesting, thanks.

I would assume then that they have it configured so the Haldex clutch is permanently engaged, only slipping/disengaging it if the rear wheels start to lose grip. Rather then it being permantly out, and only engaging when the front wheels slip.

However the text you quoted from Ford

DRIVE LINE
Drive: Ford AWD: All wheel drive 'Intelligent 4WD-System' with variable torque distribution, electronically controlled, torque distribution up to 50:50; with electronic Haldex system.

doesn't actually say it's permanent 4WD, and could equally be describing the more usual (?) setup of FWD normally with up to 50% transfer to the rear in slipperly conditions.

Whatever, it worked very well on my Sharan (which was set up to run in FWD normally). The "electronic diff" used the ABS sensors to lock individually-spinning wheels if necessary, and it certainly got me out of some very boggy fields on normal road tyres. I mean sunk in mud up to the wheel rims btw - not the mildly damp grass normally used to justify having AWD

The only issue with the Sharan was that having 4Motion ruled out a couple of factory options - xenon lights (no idea why), and sunroof (because drive from the rear axle imposed additional forces on the body shell).

 

[grober]

Tribeca?

Any reason you have missed out the Subaru Tribeca? Same drive train as you have already but in a bigger body. Built in the USA I believe which puts some people off. Subaru UK are having trouble shifting them so you would get a good deal I'm sure. Since any deal is really the difference you pay to change the "on the road price" sometimes is deceptive and thousands saved still buys a lot of fuel. Most large 4x4's will have a depreciation curve like the white cliffs of Dover in the present climate so economically your best heading for the mid size Ford KUGA, VW Tiguan, Volvo XC60 for the best trade in values. Having said that and you will be looking at Volvo the Volvo XC90 in diesel form is a better car than the XC70 which is neither one thing or the other and lacks the sophistication of the Audi ALL ROAD. Based on what you have said already I would go for the KUGA and sell the SUBY privately as has been suggested.

 

[Adam230K]

How about the BMW X5? the 3litre Diesel is quite punchy and 4.4 V8 is nice but really thirsty.

 

[st4]

How about the BMW X5? the 3litre Diesel is quite punchy and 4.4 V8 is nice but really thirsty.

I can vouch for the thrist of the 4.4i. Truth be told, the 3.0i X5 was the best of the petrol ones. Its getting a bit dated now and offerings from VW Toureg, Audi's Q5 will have it licked.

 

[flango]

How about the BMW X5? the 3litre Diesel is quite punchy and 4.4 V8 is nice but really thirsty.

Drove both the X5 & X3 earlier this year biut everyone I know who has one has had major electric failures and have told me to keep away and to be honest I'm not really a BM fan

 

[flango]

Any reason you have missed out the Subaru Tribeca? Same drive train as you have already but in a bigger body. Built in the USA I believe which puts some people off. Subaru UK are having trouble shifting them so you would get a good deal I'm sure. Since any deal is really the difference you pay to change the "on the road price" sometimes is deceptive and thousands saved still buys a lot of fuel. Most large 4x4's will have a depreciation curve like the white cliffs of Dover in the present climate so economically your best heading for the mid size Ford KUGA, VW Tiguan, Volvo XC60 for the best trade in values. Having said that and you will be looking at Volvo the Volvo XC90 in diesel form is a better car than the XC70 which is neither one thing or the other and lacks the sophistication of the Audi ALL ROAD. Based on what you have said already I would go for the KUGA and sell the SUBY privately as has been suggested.

Tribeca not really my style although the new shape is out in Ireland but it's not coming to the UK, just thought I'd try for a bit better economy thanks for the comments though

 

[flango]

I'd be careful of overvaluing it in the current climes. You could be left with a depreciating asset and high VED charges looming.

Wisebuyers valuation for 80k miles 04 plate.
Retail: £7,820
Private Good: £6,310
Private Average: £5,420
Private Poor: £4,600
Part Exchange: £5,830
Trade: £5,559


I'm confused by the age of your car though.


Subaru have never been any good at holding value, a bit like Saab, having said that 25% on a four year old car with 80k on is pretty good in reality.

No wonder I have been getting poor trade in values I spent all weekend telling dealers it was an 04 plate when it's an 06 will decide my shortlist and then get a proper trade in value but will take the V5 with me. Reason they could not tell year for themselves is it is on a private plate. Thank you dieselman for saving me from an almighty C**k up and potentially losing thousands, thats a pint or 2 I owe you

 

[Ali_H]

"Audi uses a Haldex® clutch to transmit power on its cars with transverse engines and quattro® permanent all-wheel drive. It has been specially adapted to this configuration and distributes the drive force variably between the front and rear wheels, preventing the build-up of stresses in the power train when cornering (like the Torsen® differential). The Haldex® clutch has advantages for all-wheel drive in conjunction with a transverse-mounted engines. A lot of different information is needed to distribute power to the wheels – for example, the engine speed, torque, wheel speed and anti-lock braking system (ABS) function.
*) Trademark of Haldex AB, Landskrona, Sweden "[/quote]

Audi only use Haldex on the A3 and TT, all other models are inline engines and use a proper 50% front 50% rear 4x4 system.

Just about every transverses 4x4 is really only a "part time" system ie drive is only transmitted to the rear wheels when the front start to slip. However manufactures started to install rear diffs with a slightly different ratio to the front, this fools the system into thinking the front wheels are slipping and applies drive to the rear enabling them to call it "full time" but the split will only be 95% front 5% rear in normal driving.

 

[flango]

Good morning,
Have you considered the R-class?

Regards
John

Hi John

Did consider the R class along with the Audi Q7 and VW Tourag but all slightly out of my budget, R Class coming in at around £35,500

Thanks

 

[glojo]

Hi John

Did consider the R class along with the Audi Q7 and VW Tourag but all slightly out of my budget, R Class coming in at around £35,500

Thanks

I did see the budget and noted you were after a new vehicle.

The frustrating thing is you could buy a very high spec' 2008 low mileage R-class for just £30,999

Not new though

regards
John

 

[flango]

I did see the budget and noted you were after a new vehicle.

The frustrating thing is you could buy a very high spec' 2008 low mileage R-class for just £30,999

Not new though

regards
John

My accountant says it has to be new as it has to be VAT qualifying so he can work his magic and reclaim the VAT and write the majority of the purchase off against tax. Otherwise I personally would never buy new as there are some excellent ex demo and pre registered cars out there with thousands off, particularly the larger SUV's like the R class and Q7

 

[talltimtam]

How about a SAAB 9-5 2.3 Hot Aero ??

Manual petrol varient does 0-60 in 6.5, a few years back I had a 9-3 Viggen which had 220BHP and was loads of fun to drive.

The 9-5 HOT Aero also does 31mpg combined, which is not bad for a petrol turbo. Prices for a 1-2 year old version with all the extras is very well priced at the moment..

 

[flango]

How about a SAAB 9-5 2.3 Hot Aero ??

Manual petrol varient does 0-60 in 6.5, a few years back I had a 9-3 Viggen which had 220BHP and was loads of fun to drive.

The 9-5 HOT Aero also does 31mpg combined, which is not bad for a petrol turbo. Prices for a 1-2 year old version with all the extras is very well priced at the moment..

Is there a four wheel drive version of this or is all the drive through the front wheels? As I need 4x4

 

[talltimtam]

Why would you need a 4x4?

 

[flango]

Why would you need a 4x4?

2 reasons, job takes me off road down tracks, temp roads onto drilling sites and I live in a very isolated village which is difficult to get out of in bad weather, particularly last years floods but the subaru performed brilliantly the slightly increased wading depth made all the difference and its sure footedness on the slime left behind could not be faulted