W124 300D Severe judder

[BlackC55]

Get it checked over by a specialist highlighting your concerns.

Will cost an hours labour.

 

[bennycb]

Thanks for the suggestions and information.

I'd love to take it to a specialist but they don't exist here and already taken it to two old independent mechanics who should have the best chance of understanding an old car and they haven't been able to find fault with it even though the faults are just so obvious and it's not just because it's an old car.

I know a 26 year old car will never be fault free but i ran my two W124s previously with more complex engines very cheaply and reliably and there's a lot right with this car (no rust, good overall condition, no leaks, suspension silent and sublime ride, tyre wear even, etc).

The alternative would be to buy a sorted 2000 Nissan Primera for about EUR2000 here which would cost me 500 more a year in insurance and tax so am happy to spend money on the W124 but can't just throw endless amounts at things that might fix it.

Hence the frustrating process of trying atleast to get an idea myself what the process will be to get it all sorted and the chances of it fixing it...and so the probably tedious questions on here! I doubt any mechanic here would have had a clue about the antijerk system so atleast that's something i can try and explain when i do find a garage who seem willing to tackle it so i don't see how a bit of investigative work in the next two weeks before MOT can do any harm.

 

[balge]

Thing to do is test the possibilities until you isolate the problem, easiest first. I'm not an expert but I've kept a couple of 124s on the road for ten years but if I'm wrong anywhere someone can tell you better!
Get a jack under the car, block of wood under the diff case, jack it up - if the diff bushes have failed you will find up and down slack and the bushes will need replacing
Get it up in the air (ramps, ideally) and check the prop-shaft - rotate it back and forth, to check the rubber 'doughnuts' - also eyeball mk1 to look for signs of them breaking up. There's one at each end of the shaft. Replace if required
Also check the half-shafts - (hand-brake off) rotate the rear wheels and check for slack before the diff.
Not sure how to check the transmission mount other than just eyeballing for wear?

Manual is available online if you sign up here

- News

this might be relevant?

http://w124-zone.com/downloads/MB C...assis/Prog_Repairs/Propellor_Shaft.pdf#page=4

 

[BlackC55]

Where do you live?

 

[bennycb]

Thing to do is test the possibilities until you isolate the problem, easiest first.

Thanks for the ideas, exactly what i was looking for.

I already parked the car on a kerb and went underneath it and found the doughnuts looked normal although the whole prop shaft and the doughnuts and whatever the doughnuts are attached to would turn a bit despite the handbrake being on and the car in gear suggesting play in the differential and the other end, though i´m not sure if this is normal?

Lubricating and fiddling with the wiring from the sensors to the steering cluster I´ve managed to get the rev counter working again and can say the engine feels a little smoother throughout the rev range so assume anti jerk now works. Although it makes avoiding the judder easier it hasn´t solved the problem.

All the clonks and knocks that i hear with the judder come from the back of the car, and when it goes over even slightly rough ground they are exaggerated so I will atleast check the half shafts as sounds like i am capable of that. Then will get a mechanic to check the diferential and it´s mounts and all the rear suspension bits as the next point of call.

The resonance can be heard in all gears at between 1100 and 1300rpm most prominently from the back (though maybe because that is where there is something noisily rattling). The resonance can only be detected by the rattles and not felt so not sure it is the engine mounts, though it is rpm related.

 

[bennycb]

Where do you live?

Barcelona. Never seen an indie here, just main dealer or many many indpendent family run garages. Tried a few of them before when needed things and not had a problem but getting things taken seriously or diagnosed is not easy. General attitude is "it's an old car with MOT that starts and stops. of course it won't run perfect but what more do you expect/want?"

 

[carat 3.6]

Have you checked the propshaft center bearing?

If it is worse when turning left or right, that suggests diff to me.

 

[bennycb]

Update

Well 1,000 miles more and a MOT pass without any advisories, given the car a few tanks of optimum diesel and must say engine is a lot smoother and all the electrics and gauges now work all the time. Returned me nearly 45mpg on a 200 mile run yesterday as well, not too bad for a 28 year old car, and getting used to living with the judderiness and driving it in a way that avoids it as much as possible.

Also spoke to the guy at the MOT inspectors (it doesn´t work like the UK here, more like a production line of bays and things you drive over that shake the wheels and car while someone underneath in a pit inspects everything) and he said there are no problems with the rear suspension or any of the drivetrain he could see or there would be an advisory and that the machines that shake the wheels detect play automatically in any direction and each wheel more than comfortably passed the tolerances so no problems here.

After much more listening the rear noises are vibrations (I think the exhaust hitting the car) rather than from the diff, they appear as something vibrating and accompany the interior rattles that appear at the same time: They are worse when going up hill and only at certain engine rpm/ gear combinations.

So I am thinking of just getting the engine mounts changed and then seeing if this makes any difference. Am I right that new engine mounts could iron out vibrations to the rear of the car and reduce the wear and tear on the rest of the drivetrain even if they aren´t causing some of the judder? To be honest I could just live with it now as it is but I can´t help thinking that all these vibrations and drivetrain judder must be wearing everything else out, or am i just worrying too much?

How much would I be looking at for changing the engine mounts in terms of hours labour and the parts and do you think it is worth doing?

Thanks as always

 

[trapperjohn]

Not sure on time to fit them but here is a price from UK.

ENGINE MOUNTING MERCEDES E-CLASS (W124) E 220 (124.022) 150BHP Top German Qualit | eBay

Replacing the engine mounts will cut down some of the judder I'm thinking. It will help save on wear over the next year I'm sure. Not an expert so I can promise.

 

[johnsco]

One of my E300TDs juddered as soon as the transmission was engaged.
Changing both engine mounts cured the problem.

 

[bennycb]

Found another mechanic to look at it and he showed me under the car and we had a chat. The conclusion was none of the mounts/drivtrain can be guaranteed as they all are old but by looking and testing they all seem fine except the two differential mounts at the rear (one is not centred and the other is completely gone so there is metal on metal) and the diff moves up and down a lot.

He told me he would start by replacing these and it should improve car but no guarantees it will solve everything.

Quote is GBP35 for the 2 rubber parts and 5 hours labour.

So does this sound a good way to go and can the differential mounts cause the fore/aft judders as well as the noises and clunks? Does 5 hours labour sound a lot?

 

[balge]

There are three rubber mountings altogether, one above the diff, as well as the two behind it.

Five hours seems plenty I took that long but I'm not very good, and I did it in a car-park.
What's their hourly rate? - and does that five hours include lunch ?

Maybe someone can tell you the 'book time'?

I think new diff mounts will definitely improve things...

 

[bennycb]

There are three rubber mountings altogether, one above the diff, as well as the two behind it.

Five hours seems plenty I took that long but I'm not very good, and I did it in a car-park.
What's their hourly rate? - and does that five hours include lunch ?

He´s charged me half an hour for inspecting drivetrain and fitting the fuel filters (and a fuel pipe which was needed as well) which seems reasonable.

His hourly rate is 50eur/hour inc VAT so total job would be slightly under 300Euros all in. I think I´m just going to go for it as i don´t want to drive the car permanently without fixing it and this is the 3rd mechanic who has said the other bits of the drivetrain are fine so worth a punt for the money i think.

 

[bennycb]

Well after much being messed around again found someone who was actually keen to get the car on a ramp and look at things while i waited. Insists the engine and gearbox mounts and clutch, diff and driveshafts are OK, but that every joint/rubber between the diff and gearbox is perished and about to snap completely or very bad. Happy to finally get an opinion of confidence...but 6-700eur (about 4-500GBP) to fix all in.

Worth it? I now have to work a couple of days a week and need to rely on the car and these things have made me wonder if a 28 year old car can be reliable? It´s a simple car and gearbox reverse selection problem seems to have disappeared (and all gears easier to select) with use, the fuel starvation hasnt come back after new filters (though tank kept above a quarter just in case) the car cruises great and has fresh MOT (no advisories), zero rust, the electrics work and I got 45mpg on a run.

As its 100 a year insurance and no tax i don´t mind spending a few hundred each MOT for odd things or having odd noises develop and eventually something needing replacing but frequent serious breakdowns and hard to diagnose faults take their toll on my time and confidence as well as the wallet! So could i be at the end of the tunnel or is this car in general not really suitable for someone who wants reliable transport and can´t do much work on it themselves (though can always have a go at basics)?

 

[trapperjohn]

Glad you have someone who can sort it.

You will do your calculations and come up with the right answer. If it goes it will always be the one that is your benchmark for anything else. And nothing else will come close. Having said that is down to Euro's, service and support and the gut feeling. Lets this be the last few hundred you spend on it and see how much service you can get out of it.

Good Luck whichever way you go.

 

[bolide]

every joint/rubber between the diff and gearbox is perished and about to snap completely or very bad

These are typical faults caused by lack of proper maintenance

The front prop doughnut fails, in my opinion, when the engine mounts fail. As the engine drops the normal gearbox - prop angle changes and stresses the doughnut

I'd replace the engine mounts, front prop doughnut and the diff mounts

If the diff mounts have failed the diff is likely to be leaking as the input shaft seal ovalises as the diff winds up under acceleration

Nick Froome

 

[bennycb]

Improved but not solved

Well i´m 500 quid lighter and have new diff mounts, prop shaft bearing, and donuts at each end. The noises have all gone and the car doesn´t appear to be about to self destruct but there is still a bit of judder.

After a helpful 30 minutes chat and test drive the mechaniche showed me that when changing gear because this is an old diesel the revs drop quickly and so its important to accelerate more before lifting the clutch unlike a modern car...which helped but still doesnt explain smaller judders in gear when lifting off/accelerating quickly...this was put down to an engine a little worn, as was the fact it takes 5 seconds on start up to reach oil pressure and idle nicely, and nothing to worry about too much (when hot oil pressure drops to 1.5 on idle, again acceptable).

I mentioned the engine mounts and he said left one was a little old and explained why car shajes alittle when turning off the engine, but measured them and it´s not collapsed and so cannot explain the judder.

Therefore as a keeper it still needs an engine mount (100GBP), oil and filter change (75GBP) and thermostat (40GBP) and a new problem of a clonk when quickly pulling steering wheel to left (track rod end 75GBP).

However we agreed that given car is perfectly driveable/safe, the random gear selection issue that disappeared as quickly as it appeared may return, and we still don´t know if the fuel filter fixed the cutting out issue, he said driving the car as is for summer (temps of 25-35) where themrostat and oil shouldn´t matter too much and engine mount shouldnt do much damage as it isn´t collapsed would be a good plan. Then if no new problems come up and I get used to driving it smoother in September the above and two rear tyres should get it sorted.

Does all that sound reasonable advice/plan given i couldnt bear to spend another 400 and find that the gearbox issue or cutting out comes back or something else breaks!..Or does it sound inaccurate/hopeful?

I also stupidly assumed its a 5 seater but the 5th passenger sits on the seatblets of the other two, and there´s no fifth belt. There´s also no rear head rests, I don´t suppose it´s easy to add them as i do like to go away with 4 or 5 adults sometimes and i can´t think it´s comfy on a 4-5 hr journey? just assumed 5 adults would be comfortable as my w124 estate had 5 comfy seats and belts and every car ive ever had has headrests!.

Thanks as always for suggestions

 

[horatio]

I have changed the engine mounts and prop joints on the 190.

The engine mount symptoms were shaking at idle, slight judder when starting off from a standstill and eventually a grinding noise of full lock. Don't use cheap parts, I ended changing the mounts twice.

The prop joints made a clonk when lifting off.

If a mechanics diagnosis is " it's an old car mate", run a mile!

 

[bolide]

At the risk of repeating myself yet again, I suggest you replace the engine mounts

Nick Froome

 

[grober]

At the risk of repeating myself yet again, I suggest you replace the engine mounts

Nick Froome

And maybe the rear gearbox mount while you are at it?