What the hell

[Ade B]

This is a newspaper article and has probably only a tenuous relationship with actual fact.

Sure the govt. is up to no good in a number of areas, surveillance is one but if you think our civil rights are really being eroded, pop over to Zimbabwe for a bit and then come back and look again.

I'm sure people on this site didn't moan this much a year ago - something to do with house prices falling?

The sun is almost shining and its spring


Ade

 

[st4]

This is a newspaper article and has probably only a tenuous relationship with actual fact.

Sure the govt. is up to no good in a number of areas, surveillance is one but if you think our civil rights are really being eroded, pop over to Zimbabwe for a bit and then come back and look again.

I'm sure people on this site didn't moan this much a year ago - something to do with house prices falling?

The sun is almost shining and its spring


Ade

True, but this isn't Zimbabwe, this is Great Britain. Its the start of the big brother culture. There is a tad of niaviety shifting the blame onto the housing market.

Broadly speaking if the value of your house falls, the value of the one you are trying to buy (to replace the house you sold) has fallen in value too, so your no worse off.

You have what is called "an unrealised loss" if the value of your property falls, but you only actually see this loss if you sell. Houses (despite what Sarah Beany et al may think) are not investments, but neccisity items. Its only if your a house builder and your margins are falling that house market trends should be an issue.

Back to Ade's post, people are moaning about political issues and motoring issues because there is more to moan about.

 

[Ade B]

True, but this isn't Zimbabwe, this is Great Britain. Its the start of the big brother culture. There is a tad of niaviety shifting the blame onto the housing market.

Broadly speaking if the value of your house falls, the value of the one you are trying to buy (to replace the house you sold) has fallen in value too, so your no worse off.

You have what is called "an unrealised loss" if the value of your property falls, but you only actually see this loss if you sell. Houses (despite what Sarah Beany et al may think) are not investments, but neccisity items. Its only if your a house builder and your margins are falling that house market trends should be an issue.

Back to Ade's post, people are moaning about political issues and motoring issues because there is more to moan about.

It was a joke.

And house prices falling is a problem for those who bought recently - like me - but life goes on.

But anyway, look over your shoulder by all means. We have been monitored by the state in some form or other since the year dot. The increasing reliance on technology to undertake police activities is a concern and I don't agree with it simply because it relies on a person to interpret the data, and they never get details wrong.

Having said that there are many other more interesting things in life to dwell on.

I'm going to have lunch now, its going to be brilliant


Ade

 

[glojo]

I love these types of thread because the replies always make me smile. I also enjoy looking at films that show spy satellites that can high-light car registration numbers, but is that possible? Is this so called spy in the sky drone a reality, or is it some company out to try and sell a product? A couple of months ago I saw a police force demonstrating a very small remote controlled 'toy' helicopter, and yes these things might be worth considering.

What is cheaper, a small pilot-less drone that can monitor a large protest march, traffic jam etc or a helicopter with a two or three person\man crew? I cannot see this country using this item as a basic traffic enforcement piece of equipment simply because of operational requirement\costs plus flight legislation. (if indeed it were ever introduced) Aircraft have to comply with CAA legislation once they exceed certain weights etc and the Police are not exempt from these. Still it is big brother and let's just stick to the bobby on the beat and not use ANY technology that might assist in the detection of crime or those involved in its committal.

I am not happy about the way road users are deemed 'fair game' but is it fair to assume that we are all against folks that drive on our roads without insurance, or drivers that think it clever to drink and drive or drive like idiots? If we want our roads policed then we must accept the consequences, plus more police on the streets will see more road users being stopped!

John

 

[fredfloggle]

But there is lots to be afraid of Fred.

See the post immediately above yours. People are frightened to stand up and speak out against the government and it's policies in case they are labelled terrorists.

We've sleep-walked into a position where our civil liberties are almost non existent.

Our lives are recorded and logged by organisations so inept they are losing data almost as fast as they are acquiring it and using it so badly innocent people can end up with criminal records just because their name is a bit like someone else's.

I think there's plenty to be afraid of even if you are a model citizen

Andy

I quite agree, civil liberties are out the window.

I can't own a firearms without jumping through hoops, I'm supposed to believe that owning a car is in fact a priviledge, I'm supposed to be grateful because I get my rubbish collected, and not be upset because I get a fine because the lid doesn't shut.

Way I see it, to avoid disappointment, get yourself tooled up for £100, don't bother with RFL, insurance or MOT for the car, oh and dump your rubbish by the side of the road where you feel like it.

Sound familiar? yep, it's London.

 

[fredfloggle]

True, but this isn't Zimbabwe, this is Great Britain. Its the start of the big brother culture. There is a tad of niaviety shifting the blame onto the housing market.

Broadly speaking if the value of your house falls, the value of the one you are trying to buy (to replace the house you sold) has fallen in value too, so your no worse off.

You have what is called "an unrealised loss" if the value of your property falls, but you only actually see this loss if you sell. Houses (despite what Sarah Beany et al may think) are not investments, but neccisity items. Its only if your a house builder and your margins are falling that house market trends should be an issue.

Back to Ade's post, people are moaning about political issues and motoring issues because there is more to moan about.

Correct ! so long as the interest rates don't rise, they won't rise will they?

And your theory works just fine with chocolate coins, but not with real money - maybe you don't remember the last crash.

 

[fredfloggle]

The drone in the sky does exist and has been used in the US to film drug deals.

Still, don't do anything wrong and you have nothing to fear do you?

Oh and remember, hats with a brim exceeding 2.5cm are now illegal.

 

[Ratz]

I love these types of thread because the replies always make me smile. I also enjoy looking at films that show spy satellites that can high-light car registration numbers, but is that possible? Is this so called spy in the sky drone a reality, or is it some company out to try and sell a product? A couple of months ago I saw a police force demonstrating a very small remote controlled 'toy' helicopter, and yes these things might be worth considering.

What is cheaper, a small pilot-less drone that can monitor a large protest march, traffic jam etc or a helicopter with a two or three person\man crew? I cannot see this country using this item as a basic traffic enforcement piece of equipment simply because of operational requirement\costs plus flight legislation. (if indeed it were ever introduced) Aircraft have to comply with CAA legislation once they exceed certain weights etc and the Police are not exempt from these.
John

Trust me, the technology is possible - I work in 'technology', as does my wife!

As for CAA legislation - hmmmm. I remember a short time ago there was an investigation into so called financial incentives for the Saudi's to buy from BAe, how quickly that disappeared despite the likelihood of being a very large can of worms. Laws only apply when it is 'in the national interest'.

 

[st4]

Correct ! so long as the interest rates don't rise, they won't rise will they?

And your theory works just fine with chocolate coins, but not with real money - maybe you don't remember the last crash.

Waaaaaaaay of topic here but its interesting

Interest rates effect the repayment of the interest of the principle that you have borrowed. This does have a knock on to the capital value of your property. The lower the interest rates, the greater the "liquidity" of the market as more people are willing to borrow (and greater sums).

However if you recently buy, have no intention of selling the capital value of property is immaterial. If you sit tight the house will still serve its purpose, and if you sell, you need to buy another house, this should have also fallen. Only if you turn over your house regularly, or need to move and you've just bought should the housing market be a major issue.

However people seem to secure debt and borrow against the capital value of their home as they assume it will rise, and even after they repaid the principle and the interest on capital they'll be in the money. Why should that be the case?

Stocks and shares rise and fall daily (mainly fall these days) and I am down on a £3000 investment in F&C investment trust. I haven't secured anything on that investment.

 

[glojo]

Trust me, the technology is possible - I work in 'technology', as does my wife!

As for CAA legislation - hmmmm. I remember a short time ago there was an investigation into so called financial incentives for the Saudi's to buy from BAe, how quickly that disappeared despite the likelihood of being a very large can of worms. Laws only apply when it is 'in the national interest'.

Your proving my point. A lot of things 'are' possible. I would love to see the DHSS computer linked into the Police PNC, it is no doubt possible, and has been for many, many years but it has not been done.

Your point about BAe has nothing to do with the price of chips and what we are discussing.

A few years ago a Police helicopter pilot was prosecuted for flying a Police single engined helicopter lower than the stipulated height stipulation for that aircraft. I'm sure folks will dismiss this and make up some big brother Orwellian explanation, but single engined pilot-less aircraft flying over built up areas will have to comply with the very strict CAA laws.

John

 

[fredfloggle]

They are battery powered, unmanned and very very quiet . CAA wouldn't have much to do with them ...http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=1416&pagetype=90&pageid=8153

 

[Ratz]

Your proving my point. A lot of things 'are' possible. I would love to see the DHSS computer linked into the Police PNC, it is no doubt possible, and has been for many, many years but it has not been done.

Your point about BAe has nothing to do with the price of chips and what we are discussing.

A few years ago a Police helicopter pilot was prosecuted for flying a Police single engined helicopter lower than the stipulated height stipulation for that aircraft. I'm sure folks will dismiss this and make up some big brother Orwellian explanation, but single engined pilot-less aircraft flying over built up areas will have to comply with the very strict CAA laws.

John

Nah, possible technologically or commercially and possible for the civil service are two very different things .

Yes, and the odd policeman gets done for speeding too but that doesn't mean there aren't dual standards. If the government wants something to happen then it generally does, be it under the guise of anti-terrorism or whatever the latest scaremongering trend is. 1984 is one of my favourite books and I think Orwell was pretty close to the mark, albeit out by a few years.

I have some sympathy with what your driving at, if I didn't read the newspapers or listen to the news then would I really see any difference in my day to day life - probably no. But I do read and I do listen, and ultimately you have to get your information from somewhere and make a judgement call on it.

 

[fredfloggle]

and http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP658.PDF

 

[glojo]

and http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP658.PDF

Here is just a small clip from your link and the thing we are talking about would be very heavy:

Model aircraft except pure gliders weighing between 20 and 150 kg are subject to all

of the Rules or Articles of the Air Navigation Order.
As many of these Rules are practically impossible for the model operator to meet, the
modeller must request a specific written Exemption to allow the model to be flown.
Any such Exemption will only be issued by the CAA subject to additional operating
conditions and after it has been satisfied that the model is designed, built and test
flown to a satisfactory standard.​

Any person or group contemplating building an aircraft, except a pure glider,
that is likely to weigh more than 20 but less than 150 kg should apply at an early
stage to one of the modelling associations for advice. (See Annex A)​

The Large Model Association (LMA) operates a model inspection scheme on behalf​

of all UK Aeromodelling Associations.

 

[recycled]

A Drone has been flying around here since 2006 december.
Initially it was to deal with crimes and yobs and the usual if you have nothing to hide (yawn).
I see it has ben put to more useful things

 

[fredfloggle]

Here is just a small clip from your link and the thing we are talking about would be very heavy:

Model aircraft except pure gliders weighing between 20 and 150 kg are subject to all

of the Rules or Articles of the Air Navigation Order.
As many of these Rules are practically impossible for the model operator to meet, the
modeller must request a specific written Exemption to allow the model to be flown.
Any such Exemption will only be issued by the CAA subject to additional operating
conditions and after it has been satisfied that the model is designed, built and test
flown to a satisfactory standard.
Any person or group contemplating building an aircraft, except a pure glider,
that is likely to weigh more than 20 but less than 150 kg should apply at an early
stage to one of the modelling associations for advice. (See Annex A)
The Large Model Association (LMA) operates a model inspection scheme on behalf​

of all UK Aeromodelling Associations.

No it wouldn't - it was featured on the Discovery channel in Asia a while back and the thing is easily held up by the operator for launch. It is battery powered and pretty close to silent.

I hardly think that something the size of a skip flying about could be considered "stealthy"


Wingspan: 60inches (1500mm)
Wing area: 900 sq. inches (60 sq. dm)
Length: 48 inches (1200mm)
Weight:
Basic (1 hour duration) 5.3 lbs (2300g)
Payload 3.5 lbs (1700 g)
Maximum airspeed: 60 mph (100 km/h)
Loiter speed: 25 mph (40 km/h)
Maximum duration: 5 hours

There is also a deluxe base station available, this upgrade includes everything in the standard base station plus a 5 inch TFT monitor and 40 GB digital video recorder installed on a panel mount.
For aerial photography everyone will require a different setup of components so rather than have only one fully loaded package, the DF Tango is fully customizable and can be ordered with a number of different components. The aircraft starts as a basic ready to fly out of the box aircraft with a digital still camera, radio system and thermal sensors to aid with flight stability. As your requirements get more complex the DF Tango can be loaded with additional equipment to fulfill your needs. You can add or remove components so you only pay for the equipment that you need. The possibilities are nearly endless, whether you need an easy plane to fly for close range photography or a fully autonomous system able to fly up to 60 miles to take pictures and video of a specific target the Tango is up to the task.

 

[glojo]

No it wouldn't - it was featured on the Discovery channel in Asia a while back and the thing is easily held up by the operator for launch. It is battery powered and pretty close to silent.

I hardly think that something the size of a skip flying about could be considered "stealthy"


Wingspan: 60inches (1500mm)
Wing area: 900 sq. inches (60 sq. dm)
Length: 48 inches (1200mm)
Weight:
Basic (1 hour duration) 5.3 lbs (2300g)
Payload 3.5 lbs (1700 g)
Maximum airspeed: 60 mph (100 km/h)
Loiter speed: 25 mph (40 km/h)
Maximum duration: 5 hours

I would love to see the thing flying over our towns in anything like a strong breeze with sufficient equipment to carry out genuine surveillance. What equipment operates your example, can it be jammed and can it be operated away from line of sight?

What we see on the Discovery channel is one thing but in a real life situation the thing has to be big enough to carry sophisticated equipment that cannot be monitored or jammed and work away from line of sight!

The toys you are discussing are just that. They carry a camera that takes pictures! Bill is the model man, but surely something only weighing 5.3Ib with a 5ft wingspan and flying at 25mph will be effected by the wind? The higher it goes the windier it gets and with something that light will it require line of sight operation? What happens if it goes out of control over a city? It is a toy and these things have an awful reputation for being an accident waiting to happen.

I fully accept that model helicopters can carry video equipment but that is not what folks are discussing. we are talking about a spy in the sky that can remain flying for many hours and be capable of sending a live stabilised video link back to its base, plus fly in all types of weather.

 

[Benz in Brazil]

I see that a lot of people are not happy about the situation. Too much control from the goverment, extortionist fuel prices, taxation that penalises whoever has the cohones to work and do well but nobody does anything. We moan but do nothing when it comes to our own quality of life but have the guts to protest and strike if animals are used for medical research. Not saying that is not important but in Britain we are afraid to take action about whats important to our own life. In i.e France people take the goverment full on if there is something they do not agree with. At the end of the day the goverment is like a board of directors in a company and we are the shareholders. If we dont like what we getting we have to sack them.

Well said, and echoes what I've been saying (in Brazil) for years!

 

[Madeira Jon]

RATZ made this comment.

we all conform and fear the prospect of losing a job or not being able to get another one etc

I have personal experience of this activity. From 1967-69 I was active in the National Union of Student. When I graduated with distinction in education, I found it very difficult indeed obtaining a teaching post, despite the fact that there was a chronic teacher shortage in my chosen field at that time. I applied for well over 40 posts.
Eventually on my behalf a friendly headmaster wrote off to the pertinent authorities stating that he was interested in employing me.
He showed me the reply. I was classed as "an indisciplined subversive troublemaker".

I ws lucky to eventually get a post in a school where the head was desperate.

Later when I was in a position of some authority and about to employ someone, after receiving a fairly neutral written reference, I would frequently get a phone call from the persons current employer (Local Authority) negating the reference and virtually damning the applicants character.

 

[DaveK]

Very soon it will be impossible to get any job with out a CRB check and I bet they will inc political beliefs, union activity and even a review of what you post on internet forums.