Whats your strategy for year 2030 / ban of ICE vehicles?

[ALFAitalia]

Blowing a hooley daan saaf too!

 

[Darrell]

Blowing a hooley daan saaf too!

From my roof on Brighton College. It’s hard work up here today.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are 3,835 hybrid buses, 950 battery electric buses, and 20 hydrogen fuel cell buses operating in London, as of March 2023, out of a total bus fleet of 8,643 - this is around 56% of the bus fleet.

So in other words, 89% of the fleet isn't zero emission.

Hardly surprising as BEV buses (from China) are expensive. £400k for the bus, with a new set of batteries every six years.

They don't run on U2's any more so it's £150k a set.

And then there's the cost of the infrastructure to support them. (London bus routes still often run from 19th Century horse watering holes.)

 

[markjay]

No doubt, clean air comes at a price.

 

[Fastcar155]

Hi , When the new Route master bus was introduced may understanding that the vehicle was a type of battery bus backed up by a diesel engine.

 

[markjay]

From my roof on Brighton College. It’s hard work up here today.
View attachment 147102

Looks windy

 

[Darrell]

No doubt, clean air comes at a price.

That many people cannot afford.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

How dramatic. Although i appreciate drama is very much in keeping with the current vogue for all things related to climate.

But it’s only those people who are passionate about climate issues who are dramatic, is that right?

The voice of reason is very neutral in their choice of words, and would avoid dramatic terminology, like “weaponise”

Pot, kettle?

Sadly the climate alarmists have even weaponised that. Extreme weather alert!

 

[BTB 500]

So in other words, 89% of the fleet isn't zero emission.

Hardly surprising as BEV buses (from China) are expensive. £400k for the bus, with a new set of batteries every six years.

Not ideal but I guess hybrid works pretty well on buses ... lots of regen braking? 44% of the fleet being Euro 6 ("at least", TFL says) diesel would be more of an issue I think.

 

[BTB 500]

Hi , When the new Route master bus was introduced may understanding that the vehicle was a type of battery bus backed up by a diesel engine.

Yes they are hybrids ... diesel plus battery. When they went into production 12 years ago I don't think the technology was there for a battery-only version, but it looks like they may convert them at some point:

"At the Euro Bus Expo in November 2022, Norfolk-based electric vehicle manufacturer Equipmake unveiled the first electric vehicle conversion for the New Routemaster, with Metroline-operated vehicle LT11 on display at the event with its hybrid propulsion system having been removed and replaced by Equipmake fully-electric motors and a 400kWh battery.[106] The Equipmake New Routemaster electrification programme may allow the New Routemaster fleet to have a longer service life in London, as conversion of these vehicles to fully-electric will provide a cheaper alternative to purchasing replacement brand new electric buses."

New Routemaster - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[markjay]

That many people cannot afford.

True, but then the same argument could be levelled at almost any mandatory H&S regulation that cost money to implement: "yes, it will prevent illness and save lives, but it's too expensive and we can't afford it". I am just asking why it sounds unacceptable when it comes to the workplace, but not to clean air?

 

[Darrell]

True, but then the same argument could be levelled at almost any mandatory H&S regulation that cost money to implement: "yes, it will prevent illness and save lives, but it's too expensive and we can't afford it". I am just asking why it sounds unacceptable when it comes to the workplace, but not to clean air?

WhatAboutism??

 

[markjay]

How dramatic. Although i appreciate drama is very much in keeping with the current vogue for all things related to climate. We must have alarmism! Helps to justify the unfair taxes.

Imagine instead a pragmatic approach. Where the urban geography creates conditions similar to an enclosed space adapt existing technology used to disperse pollution in enclosed spaces. Tunnels for example use systems of fans to disperse pollution as and when required. Adapt this technology to use in these hot spots.

I see. So building systems to disperse pollution is the pragmatic approach, while trying to eliminate pollution in the first place is dramatic alarmism. Personally, I believe in the old saying prevention is better than cure, but I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[markjay]

WhatAboutism??

I am not trying to deflect... just to point out that we're talking about keeping people healthy and potentially also saving people's lives.

It would be very sad if it did turn out that we can't afford to have clean air in our city centres.

 

[Darrell]

I am not trying to deflect... just to point out that we're talking about keeping people healthy and potentially also saving people's lives.

It would be very sad if it did turn out that we can't afford to have clean air in our city centres.

Why just the city centres? Why not the entire country?
At the end of the day we’re not actually trying to keep the people healthy. Only some of them.

 

[markjay]

Why just the city centres? Why not the entire country?
At the end of the day we’re not actually trying to keep the people healthy. Only some of them.

High population density in city centres means that many people will be affected. That's why we should start with city centres. Ideally, over time we'll be able to clean up the air for everyone.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I am not trying to deflect... just to point out that we're talking about keeping people healthy and potentially also saving people's lives.
It would be very sad if it did turn out that we can't afford to have clean air in our city centres.

I'm very unimpressed with the argument that conversion to EV is justified purely by "saving people's lives" from pollution. (Climate change: that's a different matter)

Yes, we know that a girl died from asthma in Lewisham, having lived in poverty in a disgusting Council flat on a main road, but we also know millions have lived to a ripe old age in a much filthier London than our current one.

We even know that more people suffer from asthma in our current cleaner air, than suffered from asthma in "the good old days." There are other factors at work here. (Specifically, allergies, eczema, food issues, family history, brochiolitis, passive smoking, a mother smoking through pregnancy, premature birth and low birth weight)

We need to put numbers on the the cost and benefit. (Much as Citizen Khan needs to raise taxes from people visiting cancer patients being treated at the Marsden in Sutton, or flying out of LHR)

And I say this as someone whose relative suffered from asthma throughout his life, poor fella. A lifelong pipe smoker, who had a full life. He had several strokes in his early fifties, a heart attack in his sixties, suffered poor mobility in his eighties, and finally died at 92. (Another "death from hospital acquired Covid-19')

 

[markjay]

I'm very unimpressed with the argument that conversion to EV is justified purely by "saving people's lives" from pollution.

Yes, we know that a girl died from asthma in Lewisham, having lived in a disgusting Council flat on a main road, but we also know millions have lived to a ripe old age in a much filthier London than our current one. Heck, we even know that more people suffer from asthma in our current cleaner air, than suffered from asthma in "the good old days." There are other factors going on here.

We need to put numbers on the the cost and benefit.

That's the first link from Google:

What are the Health Effects of Exhaust Emissions?

Exhaust emissions which result from internal combustion engines have become increasingly regarded as a potential health risk.

www.news-medical.net

It makes for some very depressing reading....

 

[Darrell]

High population density in city centres means that many people will be affected. That's why we should start with city centres. Ideally, over time we'll be able to clean up the air for everyone.

I suppose living in the city centre has its drawbacks.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Why just the city centres? Why not the entire country?
At the end of the day we’re not actually trying to keep the people healthy. Only some of them.

As @markjay mentions the population density is dramatically different in major cities compared to remote rural areas. Not only are there far fewer people to be affected there are also far fewer vehicles spread over a much larger area, meaning that local emissions are not concentrated in the same way as they are in city centres.