Wheel bolts almost welded on!

[bob6600]

Not on the MB but thought I would check the condition of front brakes and so took the wheels off one by one.

On one side, I could not budge them, even standing on the brace until it almost slipped.

Took it to ATS who managed to get 2 off incl. the locking nut but only after continuously going forward and backwards with the gun to try and shock it.

2 more needed a very long bar and the last one was stuck. Even a reverse threaded opener did not work.

Eventually, after several sockets were bashed on, one gripped it and a very long wrench + bashing it with a hammer at the same time got it off.

Question is, 18 months ago I had 4 new tyres and when I got home, I undid all 4 wheels and torqued them correctly. I'm sure these have not been removed since as no tyre or brake work has been required.

What would cause this? There was no corrosion. Can I try and prevent this?

 

[MancMike]

What wheel cleaner do you use?

I also always properly torque my wheel nuts whenever they've been off for tyres, and in the last few months started using an acid based wheel cleaner. When I went to replace my front pads recently, it was agony to get the wheel bolts off, using a long breaker bar, they were screeching, every tiny bit of couple degree movement was ear piercing. It's as if the acid has stripped any oil off the surfaces leaving the threads totally bone dry.

 

[milleplod]

My neighbour had the same problem on his 5-series. The dealer told him just that - acid-based wheel cleaner had caused it. Some hand car-washes use brick/patio cleaner btw - much, much stronger than Wonder Wheels or similar!

Pete

 

[190]

We've had the debate several times about using anti-seize or grease on wheel bolts. From an engineering perspective there is no question that you shouldn't do it but then there is the pragmatic view that it prevents the scenario described above.

I come down on the side of pragmatism especially where locking bolts are concerned. If you do use anti-seize or grease the torque settings should be reduced by 20%.

 

[rorf]

I've always used copper grease on the wheel bolt threads and then torque to 110Nm - never had a problem, but I can see that some of these cleaners could quite easily remove all signs of lubricant and cause the threads to rust up.

 

[markjay]

The wheel bolts will come off easily if you either (a) lubricate the threads with copper grease before tightening the bolts to oblivion using a yard-long extension, or (b) tighten them dry to the specified torque using suitable torque wrench. Either will work. Your choice........

 

[190]

The OP did tighten them to spec with a torque wrench and still had the problem. His question was why did he have the problem when he did everything right including not trusting whoever fitted the tyres.

The problem is you can torque wheel nuts to the correct spec but 18 months later after contact with the elements there is no chance they will undo using the same torque value or anything close. Most of the time it doesn't matter and for the normal wheel bolts you can just jump on wheel wrench but locking bolts are much more of a problem. From the description the OP gave the release torque must have been double or more like triple the tightening torque.

In the theoretical world I could live with dry threads that stayed dry and came undone at a reasonable torque value. In the real world of wet, salt, alloy wheels and locking bolts I'm going to use something that prevents the need for ridiculous torque levels to undo.

 

[Doodle]

I'm sure these have not been removed since as no tyre or brake work has been required.

I presume the car has been serviced in that time? Just because no work was required doesn't necessarily mean the wheels didn't come off for a look.

In 20-odd years I've only ever encountered problems with wheel nuts that have been beasted on with an impact gun.

 

[Deleted member 113659]

Some hand car-washes use brick/patio cleaner btw

Yikes!

 

[bob6600]

The car was serviced by me so I know it definitely hasn't had the wheels off

I also don't use acid based wheel cleaners however I do use an alkaline cleaner, but then why did only one seize?

I did use a tiny amount of copper grease and it obviously didn't stop it seizing.

I remember having this problem once before and the garage said you can drive it on full lock around a car park with only the one bolt and it works itself loose, I thankfully didn't have to try that and neither would I want to. It did make me think though, maybe if the daily commute has say a lot more right turns, would it cause this?

I guess the only preventative measure is to whip them off every few of months and give them a clean

 

[bob6600]

I would say the torque was more than triple as I'm sure the impact guns are 300nm+

 

[Doodle]

Can't get more certain than that then, unless you have groups of nefarious felons roaming the streets over-tightening wheel bolts.

Eat more pies for extra force on the wheel brace, perhaps?

 

[geraldrobins]

I would say the torque was more than triple as I'm sure the impact guns are 300nm+

That's a bold statement. That would take some holding as well.

 

[markjay]

The wheel bolts will come off easily if you either (a) lubricate the threads with copper grease before tightening the bolts to oblivion using a yard-long extension, or (b) tighten them dry to the specified torque using suitable torque wrench. Either will work. Your choice........

...I undid all 4 wheels and torqued them correctly...

...I did use a tiny amount of copper grease and it obviously didn't stop it seizing....

Either I am wrong on both counts, or - you are doing something wrong? Tightening to higher torque? Faulty wrench? Etc?

..I remember having this problem once before..

This is even more of a worry...

 

[Yugguy]

Aye, I stick some copper grease on the bolts.

Also whenever the wheel is off I will clean off the hub face and the wheel face and the round bit that the wheel sits on. Then when it's clean I will add a bit of fresh copper grease around the hub face.

This helps with bolts but wheels on any car will sometimes need a smack with the rubber mallet to break the seal.

 

[optimusprime]

I have said this before , to many who dont like the idea .Only if you want to have these problems, then you dont put anything on the bolts . After 55 years of motoring and machanic for my own cars for all this time i have never had a problem like this .Every car i have had gets the treatment after i rmove the wheels. Grease the flange in the place it contacts the hub .And all the wheel bolts. You do what you think is best but i know i wont have this problem .

 

[bob6600]

That's a bold statement. That would take some holding as well.

Am I way off the mark with that?

Either I am wrong on both counts, or - you are doing something wrong? Tightening to higher torque? Faulty wrench? Etc?

Could be but I don't think it's out by much if at all. 100nm does not require much force on a large torque wrench

This is even more of a worry...

This was unrelated and on a different car, had it 6 months and needed to get the wheel off but had never removed it up until then. Was definitely a air gun monkey job

 

[bob6600]

I have said this before , to many who dont like the idea .Only if you want to have these problems, then you dont put anything on the bolts . After 55 years of motoring and machanic for my own cars for all this time i have never had a problem like this .Every car i have had gets the treatment after i rmove the wheels. Grease the flange in the place it contacts the hub .And all the wheel bolts. You do what you think is best but i know i wont have this problem .

I think I read one of your posts on someone else's thread a while back and agreed a small amount of grease will help. Didn't do it for me unfortunately.

I wonder if a mixture of wheel cleaner/grease/brake dust has got in between the wheel and disc, still doesn't explain the overtightened bolt tho

 

[tanuie]

Having had a rear wheel come off while driving i torque my wheels every week.
There was a long thread on the subject of greasing wheel bolts or not to.

 

[Rory]

I think I read one of your posts on someone else's thread a while back and agreed a small amount of grease will help. Didn't do it for me unfortunately.

Grease will cause the bolts to be over-stretched.

I'm amazed they didn't snap if they were as tight as described. Father-in-Law had a flat on his car and couldn't move any of the bolts until he got a length of scaffold pole over the wrench. Snapped two of them.