Who's At Fault ?

[renault12ts]

Lots of things in life are dangerous. I'm fully conversant with the potential consequences of riding a motorcycle, and I'll make my own assessment as to whether to filter or not when I'm on two wheels, thank you.

Good for you. Do other road users get to analyse your assessment as you interact with them?

 

[renault12ts]

Perfectly legal to do this despite the best efforts of ignorant car drivers.
Also legal to pull to the front at lights and pedestrian crossings!!!

So what if something is legal? It's still, for the most part...stupid.

 

[Dave.tam]

only if its a solid white line box

Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about. The bit between the stop line, and the advanced stop line, that has an outline of a cycle in it. M/Cs are not allowed to use this. However, they seem to think that they are.

 

[milleplod]

Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about. The bit between the stop line, and the advanced stop line, that has an outline of a cycle in it. M/Cs are not allowed to use this. However, they seem to think that they are.

Technically, its the 'forward stop line'. Quite a lot of cars stray into it too - technically, its an offence to go over the stop line, for any vehicle. The only time it would bother me, whilst on my motorbike, would be if the junction had some sort of camera on it, which could pick up an offence. In reality though, cameras are more likely to be for 'red light' offences. So....in the way that most of us exceed the speed limits once in a while, and take the chance, I'll continue to make my way to the front of a queue of standing traffic, and sit in the cyclists' box...and then be on my way! If it annoys a few people sitting in the aforementioned queue....er....tough! Of course, if the box is full of cyclists, I'll afford them precedence.

And in any case, there's no one out there prosecuting such trivia....which is probably a good thing. :bannana:

Pete

 

[E55BOF]

Good for you. Do other road users get to analyse your assessment as you interact with them?

They don't need to; we're past them before they know we've interacted... Unless, of course, they do something unwise, as the car driver did.

The point is, sensible motorcyclists are in general FAR more aware of what other vehicles are doing, and likely to do, far more likely to notice the little signs of and clues to intentions, and much more focussed (though you could say this rider was, in fact, Focussed) than four-wheel drivers. It's something to do with the fact that the crumple zone on a two-wheeler is the rider.

 

[st13phil]

Do other road users get to analyse your assessment as you interact with them?

If their observation is up to scratch, yes.

An experienced motorcyclist is generally very good at quickly assessing which drivers in a queue are likely to do something that endangers them and which one's aren't. Experienced motorcyclists choose when to filter through and when to hold station based on constantly assessing the risk of proceeding. In 99% of occasions when a car driver is taken by surprise by a filtering motorcyclist it's because their own observation is poor.

As E55BOF says, when I'm on two wheels the only crumple zones I have are my flesh and bones and I have no intention of testing their impact absorption capabilities. I therefore use all my senses, all the time, to make sure I don't.

 

[renault12ts]

If their observation is up to scratch, yes.

An experienced motorcyclist is generally very good at quickly assessing which drivers in a queue are likely to do something that endangers them and which one's aren't. Experienced motorcyclists choose when to filter through and when to hold station based on constantly assessing the risk of proceeding. In 99% of occasions when a car driver is taken by surprise by a filtering motorcyclist it's because their own observation is poor.

As E55BOF says, when I'm on two wheels the only crumple zones I have are my flesh and bones and I have no intention of testing their impact absorption capabilities. I therefore use all my senses, all the time, to make sure I don't.

This is very true, and to the point. Do you want to risk your life (giving respect to your experience) on this?

 

[Deleted member 37751]

I've always thought that as part of the driving test there should be an element that teaches about motorcyclists.

Spending one day on a motorbike teaches you more road awareness than a year of being in a car.

 

[Stratman]

This box at the traffic lights, the one with the picture of a bicycle in it. As well as having their own cycle lanes to not use they also have their own red light stop boxes to ignore

 

[st13phil]

This is very true, and to the point. Do you want to risk your life (giving respect to your experience) on this?

A fair question, and one that exercises my mind every time I ride.

As a rider I can both minimise the risk of coming into contact with someone like the driver of the Focus in the OP by using my own observation skills, and I can also aim to minimise the consequences if Mr. (lack of)Focus did pull into my path. For example, I will never filter past a rigid truck or artic trailer that's moving because if someone pulls into me I have nowhere to go and I'm under the wheels of the truck. In those circumstances I hold station and slot into the traffic until an opportunity arises to overtake in an adjacent lane or to filter between stationary vehicles.

By combining planning with observation, I believe that I reduce the risk to an acceptable level. I also accept that everyone has their own attitude to risk, and that they may perceive the risk I take differently to my own perception. One last point I'd make is that often what looks insane from a car seat is rarely insane when considered from a line of sight 3 feet higher from a motorcycle saddle.

 

[Dave.tam]

Technically, its the 'forward stop line'. Quite a lot of cars stray into it too - technically, its an offence to go over the stop line, for any vehicle. The only time it would bother me, whilst on my motorbike, would be if the junction had some sort of camera on it, which could pick up an offence. In reality though, cameras are more likely to be for 'red light' offences. So....in the way that most of us exceed the speed limits once in a while, and take the chance, I'll continue to make my way to the front of a queue of standing traffic, and sit in the cyclists' box...and then be on my way! If it annoys a few people sitting in the aforementioned queue....er....tough! Of course, if the box is full of cyclists, I'll afford them precedence.

And in any case, there's no one out there prosecuting such trivia....which is probably a good thing. :bannana:

Pete

Maybe it used to be called the forward stop line, but I'm pretty sure it's an advanced stop line now (ASL).

But either way, no ones driving is perfect, and we all probably break some rules of the road at different times.

It's just the M/C that try to squeeze down the side of your car to get into a box that they shouldn't even be in that P's me off, and all with a look from them that suggests that I'm in the wrong for being on the road lol

 

[Dave.tam]

To add, when I was a boy, we used to play a game whenever my parents drove anywhere. We would look at the number plates of vehicles and had to find the next number consecutively i.e. A1 ABC would be perfect for number 1, then we'd have to find a VRM with a solitary 2 it it i.e. C2 MAD.

I digress! They game I play with my children has a far modern twist. We look for motorcyclists! One point for the first bike seen, and then if the same child spots the next, it would be worth 2 points, but if a different child spots the next motorcyclist, the scoring reverts back to one point and so on.

Sorry for the long post, but I feel it's important to make my children aware of cyclists from a very young age, as the job I do sees far too many in collisions!

 

[John]

To add, when I was a boy, we used to play a game whenever my parents drove anywhere. We would look at the number plates of vehicles and had to find the next number consecutively i.e. A1 ABC would be perfect for number 1, then we'd have to find a VRM with a solitary 2 it it i.e. C2 MAD.

Yeah, I used to do the same but with suffix letters.

 

[Dave.tam]

Yeah, I used to do the same but with suffix letters.

The game became impossible to play when the new registrations became the majority. I got to about 700ish lol

 

[KennyN]

It's still, for the most part...stupid.

Unless you are stuck in a seven mile traffic jam heading to a ferry port , for example, or just about anywhere on the M25 on a daily basis.

I have been hit with loads of debris that has been discarded from stationary traffic whilst filtering , anything from apple cores to the contents of peoples noses - thank goodness for full face helmets.

Kenny

 

[rockits]

I'm not a 2 wheeler as my old man was & shouldn't still be with us on numerous occasions by all accounts.

Regardless of it being legal, illegal dangerous or not I'm not sure I would want to put my fate/life in the hands of most of the idiots out there.

I'm sure most of us on here are decent drivers and pretty accommodating & acceptant of both 2/4 wheels. Trouble is many aren't and that would concern me. At least in a cabin with 4 wheels you have half a chance. If some idiot pulls out with you on 2 wheels the chances of harm are severely increased.

That is why I prefer big cars with lots of metal around me

 

[John]

I'm not a 2 wheeler as my old man was & shouldn't still be with us on numerous occasions by all accounts.

Regardless of it being legal, illegal dangerous or not I'm not sure I would want to put my fate/life in the hands of most of the idiots out there.

I'm sure most of us on here are decent drivers and pretty accommodating & acceptant of both 2/4 wheels. Trouble is many aren't and that would concern me. At least in a cabin with 4 wheels you have half a chance. If some idiot pulls out with you on 2 wheels the chances of harm are severely increased.

That is why I prefer big cars with lots of metal around me

I see it the same way.

I see bikes filtering and I wonder how long before they get smacked by someone who didn't look.

 

[StuartK]

Focus at fault. Open and shut case

 

[rockits]

Shut case unfortunately often being the operative phrase.

 

[Dave.tam]

I rode a bike for a couple of years and thankfully had no accidents, however I was put off by the amount of near misses I had with cars that didn't look.

In my mind, it was a no brainer.....i sold the bike and never looked back.

As so many have said, what's the point in pointing the finger and appointing blame when someone has lost their life? It would be no consequence to my family to know that I died, but was in the right.