Would you overtake here?

[renault12ts]

However, it must be extremely frustrating for police drivers when other road users do not give way to them, for no apparent reason other than inattention or indifference.

Probably more frustrating would be the ones who freeze to the spot and hinder and obstruct rather than help. We've all seen them, the one in front of you, he brakes, stops, moves to the left...and yet the blues and twos are coming the opposite way and the road on that side is clear.

 

[Paul/]

We could all say what we might or might not have done. Bottom line is that a family have been killed that need not have been. To suggest that it may in some way have been their fault in the face of he accused drivers admission of guilt beggars belief.

Many posts will be based on the info provided in the DailyPost link posted earlier, which requires several assumptions to be made. I've just checked a BBC report and it seems far clearer (though still not 100%) what happened, and adds that the overtaking driver (initially) admitted guilt.

The OP's question and debate are similar to the approach taken on many driver training courses, when you don't have all the facts and the outcome before you answer. I assumed that was the intent of the thread, and have found it interesting to consider the points raised, and gained a better understanding of how other drivers might behave. I see the debate as less about apportioning blame and more about minimising risk- as it's the latter that helps keep us alive.

 

[Mercy1]

Probably more frustrating would be the ones who freeze to the spot and hinder and obstruct rather than help. We've all seen them, the one in front of you, he brakes, stops, moves to the left...and yet the blues and twos are coming the opposite way and the road on that side is clear.

Quite right, but it is sometimes difficult to ascertain just WHERE the police car/ambulance/fire engine actually is? Gives me apoplexy if the emergency vehicle is not in vision, but I don't panic Mr Mannering!

 

[markjay]

...We could all say what we might or might not have done. Bottom line is that a family have been killed that need not have been. To suggest that it may in some way have been their fault in the face of he accused drivers admission of guilt beggars belief.

I believe that Paul's post below is addressing this issue:

...I see the debate as less about apportioning blame and more about minimising risk- as it's the latter that helps keep us alive.

To my mind, the question is not whether the other driver is 'to blame', but whether both drivers could have done more to minimise risk.

 

[Deleted member 65149]

It's not considered good practice. For instance, if you signal to change lanes without realising that there's a car coming up to overtake you in the lane you intend to join, there's a good chance you'll spook the other driver into taking evasive action.

You should always be aware of what's going on around you before deciding whether to make a manoeuvre, and should only indicate that move to others once you're sure it's safe to carry it out.

BUT, isn't the indicator to be used to signal your INTENTION and/or DESIRE to carry out a manoeuvre? Unfortunately far too many of the few people who do bother to indicate only do so immediately before making the manoeuvre. Thus what happens particularly on motorways is that the indicator lever is flicked and the steering wheel starts to be turned almost in one movement. Worse still is the indicator being used to effectively prove that the manoeuvre has already started; dangerous when moving out a lane and annoying when leaving the motorway at a junction.

So if we have the scenario where you're travelling at say 65 mph on the inside lane and you're catching up with slower traffic in that lane, you start to think about pulling out before reaching that other traffic. The middle lane is busy and at around 70 mph, with cars at a mix of a bit too close or at best at a safe driving distance, but not enough room for you to pull into. Wouldn't the best practice be to turn on the right indicator before reaching the slower traffic, whilst increasing speed to something a little closer to the vehicles in the next lane and regularly checking mirrors for someone easing off to let you in? Invariably someone will leave a larger gap, and perhaps flash their lights to let you pull over. If not, then you just have to ease off again and wait behind the slower traffic until a space appears, but still leave your indicator going to signal your intention. How else will drivers in the lane that you want to enter know that's what you're trying to do?

Spooking another driver into taking possibly dangerous evasive action if you indicate when they're close behind you only comes about because of the poor practice of changing lane as soon as you've indicated. If there's plenty space behind that driver then of course there's no need to indicate quite so soon.

 

[markjay]

Personally, I would prefer it if other drivers indicted first.

It helps me if I know what their intentions are even if they can not execute them immediately.

In fact, come to think of it, when driving in traffic I subconsciously and constantly evaluate what other drivers might do, and on occasion even a slight 'wondering' of the wheels towards the edge of the lane made me think that the other driver is considering changing lanes.

So yes, I would like to know about your intentions as early as possible... so that I can consider my next move in good time.

 

[RhysC63?]

Personally, I would prefer it if other drivers indicted first.

It helps me if I know what their intentions are even if they can not execute them immediately.

In fact, come to think of it, when driving in traffic I subconsciously and constantly evaluate what other drivers might do, and on occasion even a slight 'wondering' of the wheels towards the edge of the lane made me think that the other driver is considering changing lanes.

So yes, I would like to know about your intentions as early as possible... so that I can consider my next move in good time.

I don't think this is what MOCAŠ was trying to say - his point, I believe, was that you should do a quick check to make sure there's nobody tearing down towards you in the outside lane and has put themselves in a situation where seeing your indicator flash would cause them to panic and do something drastic like brake too hard and lose control. Once you have established that nobody is in immediate danger of panicking, you can signal your intention, even if the lane is busy and it will take some time to be able to carry out the action.

 

[renault12ts]

I don't think this is what MOCAŠ was trying to say - his point, I believe, was that you should do a quick check to make sure there's nobody tearing down towards you in the outside lane and has put themselves in a situation where seeing your indicator flash would cause them to panic and do something drastic like brake too hard and lose control. Once you have established that nobody is in immediate danger of panicking, you can signal your intention, even if the lane is busy and it will take some time to be able to carry out the action.

If the use of an indicator could have such consequences, perhaps they shouldn't be on the road.

 

[Mr E]

I don't think this is what MOCAŠ was trying to say - his point, I believe, was that you should do a quick check to make sure there's nobody tearing down towards you in the outside lane and has put themselves in a situation where seeing your indicator flash would cause them to panic and do something drastic like brake too hard and lose control. Once you have established that nobody is in immediate danger of panicking, you can signal your intention, even if the lane is busy and it will take some time to be able to carry out the action.

But aren't you then left with wondering whether the driver has just left his indicator on, is indicating a desire to move into the lane and would appreciate a gap, or is about to launch his vehicle into your path?

It's a bit like flashing headlights - it's supposed to be a warning signal, but is used for so many other things that you've no idea what is actually meant.

 

[Bellow]

Eight seconds between first indication and start of manouver (braking, lateral shift, etc, etc)

On holiday, spot layby....Eight seconds?

Who here who belives Grynche was totally responsible would have pulled into that layby without first checking door mirror or looking over shoulder?

 

[Paul/]

In fact, come to think of it, when driving in traffic I subconsciously and constantly evaluate what other drivers might do, and on occasion even a slight 'wondering' of the wheels towards the edge of the lane made me think that the other driver is considering changing lanes.

Lot of good points being made about signalling intentions, and I think everyone's really on the same page as per Rhys's point. I guess all good drivers are subconsciously scanning/evaluating everywhere all the time, so Mirror-Signal-Manvr for example is an oversimplification. I only realised how much was going on subconsciously when I took a much-abbreviated advanced driving course to get discounted insurance- the assessment went fine, but then I was asked to give a running commentary on what I was noting and my thought process- and my driving went to pieces...

 

[John]

With the radio turned on at volume (even with a standard car radio), the driver might not have heard the siren until the police car was very close, and not everyone check their rearview mirror as often as they should.

Damn it. You've caught me out again. (I never heard the siren at all - saw it in my mirror as I finally looked up).

Admittedly, was 17 years ago but I did get some interesting looks from the cops as they passed.

 

[Deleted member 65149]

but then I was asked to give a running commentary on what I was noting and my thought process- and my driving went to pieces...

It's not easy the first time, but it's something I do a few times a year when I'm on my own in the car (saves on the puzzled looks and questions). I think of it as a good routine to keep on top of basics.

What I found even harder when on an abulance training course (highly recommended) was being asked about a road sign that I'd just passed. If I'd computed the information and gone past the related hazard, I had no hope of recollecting it!

 

[MOCAŠ]

I don't think this is what MOCAŠ was trying to say - his point, I believe, was that you should do a quick check to make sure there's nobody tearing down towards you in the outside lane and has put themselves in a situation where seeing your indicator flash would cause them to panic and do something drastic like brake too hard and lose control.

Thanks - that is basically what I was saying. To my mind, if a driver in the lane to my left puts his right-hand indicator on, he's saying that he intends to move into my lane. Now depending whereabouts my car is in relation to his, the balance of probabilities may suggest that he either is or is not aware of my presence. For instance, I would tend to assume that if I'm in his blind spot, there's a good chance he may not have seen me, and may therefore pull out anyway. I would therefore probably ease off or brake to allow him out, provided I wouldn't be adversely affecting anyone else by doing so.

This is what I mean by taking evasive action. Not necessarily anything as drastic as a swerve or an emergency stop, but perhaps an unintended lane change or braking.

Now, if I were the driver that was looking to make the manoeuvre, I wouldn't want someone in the next lane to feel they needed to take such evasive action, so I would look first to see if there was anyone approaching, or already alongside. If so, I would wait until they were out of my blind spot before indicating, so that they could be certain that I was aware of their presence. And, of course, I would only then indicate if there were no further vehicles to take account of.

Having indicated, I would then look to make the manoeuvre as swiftly as possible. I don't really hold with the idea of driving along with an indicator on when there's no opportunity to make a move, although there are probably one or two exceptions - for instance, in slow-moving traffic where I am as good as asking a driver to let me change lanes, but in that scenario, there would be no need for the other driver to take evasive action.

 

[MOCAŠ]

If the use of an indicator could have such consequences, perhaps they shouldn't be on the road.

Perhaps, but the fact is that there are lots of jumpy drivers on the road, and there are times when it makes sense to make allowances for them.

On the other hand, knowing that some drivers just "indicate and go", reacting swiftly to a driver that indicates when you're in his firing zone could be a very sensible move.

 

[renault12ts]

Perhaps, but the fact is that there are lots of jumpy drivers on the road, and there are times when it makes sense to make allowances for them.

On the other hand, knowing that some drivers just "indicate and go", reacting swiftly to a driver that indicates when you're in his firing zone could be a very sensible move.

Perhaps...but the scenario in post 67...should not be one of them...if you are "tearing" down the road...you better have nerves of steel.

 

[WDB124066]

I have a pretty good idea of what is around me most times. It is just something that I do to give people longer to see what I'm going to do. Looking over your shoulder is a little distracting to do before you put the indicator on so it just goes on, then I look. If they are in the blind spot at least they have time to toot etc.

I always indicate even if I think I'm the only one on the road - hangover from cycling days........

 

[markjay]

I have a pretty good idea of what is around me most times. It is just something that I do to give people longer to see what I'm going to do. Looking over your shoulder is a little distracting to do before you put the indicator on so it just goes on, then I look. If they are in the blind spot at least they have time to toot etc.

I always indicate even if I think I'm the only one on the road - hangover from cycling days........

For me, indicating is an instinctive habit. I have been laughed at by mates who saw me indicating while taking a turn inside an empty supermarket car park..

 

[WDB124066]

^ Yes exactly, I laugh back at them.

 

[MOCAŠ]

Perhaps...but the scenario in post 67...should not be one of them...if you are "tearing" down the road...you better have nerves of steel.

Depends what you mean by "tearing down". I suspect all RhysC63 meant was a driver travelling significantly faster than the one that is intending to change lanes - this is to be expected if the former driver is in one of the overtaking lanes.