You can help Porsche in its fight

[prprandall51]

I am not suggesting that the details of the proposed increases are OK, as usual with legislation, there are fudges and anamolies....
I was really trying to steer this thread away from knee-jerk Ken-bashing, using tabloidesque soundbites about spite, envy, etc, and the distasteful spectacle of a foreign company trying to influence important decisions for their own ends.
....

But it is the very details of this proposed legislation that reveal it to have nothing to do with emissions and / or congestion and everything to do with Ken's long and publicly held communist views. That's why I am here debating it so furiously.

As to "Ken-bashing", this isn't a knee-jerk reaction, I have been doing it for years and I considered the matter from every angle before despising him. Look, regular forum members will know already that I am the last person to pay any attention the those left-wing rags the Guardian and the Observer, but let's see what's on the Guardian's web page right now:
Article: Why Ken is unfit for office

This is why nobody should support this legislation even if you do support congestion charging and emissions taxation. Because it is rotten to the core. And that isn't a soundbyte, it's a fact.

Philip

 

[Alfie]

But it is the very details of this proposed legislation that reveal it to have nothing to do with emissions and / or congestion and everything to do with Ken's long and publicly held communist views. That's why I am here debating it so furiously.

As to "Ken-bashing", this isn't a knee-jerk reaction, I have been doing it for years and I considered the matter from every angle before despising him. Look, regular forum members will know already that I am the last person to pay any attention the those left-wing rags the Guardian and the Observer, but let's see what's on the Guardian's web page right now:
Article: Why Ken is unfit for office

This is why nobody should support this legislation even if you do support congestion charging and emissions taxation. Because it is rotten to the core. And that isn't a soundbyte, it's a fact.

Philip

Well said Philip.

 

[jeremytaylor]

The really scary thing is the LEZ (Low Emission Zone that applies to trunk roads in most of inside the M25).

Only applies to commercial vehicles, you say?

Yes. At the moment. But according to Autocar this week a simple software change could see it apply to all vehicles. And the LEZ operates 24/7/365.

Whilst I could just about see an argument for the original CC zone in that there is excellent if expensive public transport in the area, if, as Ken is bound to do if he is re-elected, he turns the LEZ into a super-CC, then we will really have a discussion on our hands!! Even the most ardent CC-supporters will be forced to agree that such an extension of the zone would be a tax pure and simple.

Don't think it will happen? Well why would Ken introduce the LEZ which he admits will always run at a loss? Because by turning it into a massive CC it would make a massive profit!

Like his tinkering with the CC now, it's nothing to do with air quality (he accepts his tinkering will have no effect), but everything to do with taxing us more!!

Please, if you have a vote in London, use it wisely and get rid of this dictator!!

 

[hawk20]

Porsche are a German company, based in Zuffenhausen, Stuttgart. They are out to protect their product line and profits, any tax on this is payable to the German government (unless they squirrel it away in Lichtenstein ). The only interest they have in London is how many cars they can sell there.

Porsche are a world class, multi-national company with every right to defend their interests in any and all the countries in which they operate.

 

[MBManInKen]

Oooh, until now I missed another one of those friendly debates about the CC .

I have already set out my main points elsewhere, but no one has been able to answer this: in contrary to most of you and the overall majority of people in this country, I will have to start paying 25 quid every time I drive my own car in my own street - where I live. How come that is a fair or proper system?

I wonder if all those who try to defend this system would still be so keen if that was the case for wherever you now live. Think about it: every time you move your own car in your own street, 25 quid a day.

As I said elsewhere, 75% of people coming into Central London do so on public transport, a lot more than anywhere else in the country. I suggest you all start using public transport for your commute, as I do every day, and use public transport to go about in your city during your leisure time, as I do, before proselytising about how making us pay 25/day for using our car in the street where we live is fair and just while continuing to drive your own cars everywhere for everything .

But don't worry: your time to cough up will come .

 

[Swiss Toni]

KEN WANTS YOUR MONEY.

THATS IT.

NOTHING MORE THAN THAT.

One way or another he will squeeze car drivers pips until they bleed money.

All the talking wont change anything.

PORSCHE WANTS YOUR MONEY TOO.



Well they aren't getting it.

Manufactureres of @rse-engined-nazi-staffcars (and @rse-faced-London-Mayors) can keep their grubby mits off.

 

[Sp!ke]

You should commission a 6L V12 trike or 3 wheeler car. They are classified as a motorcycle and guess what, they pay no CC.

 

[Ade B]

perhaps one of these


Ade

 

[hawk20]

Oooh, until now I missed another one of those friendly debates about the CC .

I have already set out my main points elsewhere, but no one has been able to answer this: in contrary to most of you and the overall majority of people in this country, I will have to start paying 25 quid every time I drive my own car in my own street - where I live. How come that is a fair or proper system?

I wonder if all those who try to defend this system would still be so keen if that was the case for wherever you now live. Think about it: every time you move your own car in your own street, 25 quid a day.

As I said elsewhere, 75% of people coming into Central London do so on public transport, a lot more than anywhere else in the country. I suggest you all start using public transport for your commute, as I do every day, and use public transport to go about in your city during your leisure time, as I do, before proselytising about how making us pay 25/day for using our car in the street where we live is fair and just while continuing to drive your own cars everywhere for everything .

But don't worry: your time to cough up will come .

You make good points and the way it has been done it will apparently not help pollution or congestion.

And retrospective legislation stinks. At least Gordon Brown only introduced band G for new cars bought AFTER his 2006 budget. Central govt should set the rules and not allow local councils to do retrospective legislation.

But in the end, the strength of feeling on global warming (right or wrong and I've posted my views) is such that it is prudent to assume we all need to get out of band G cars or face nasty consequences. Probably some more on band G taxes to come in the budget in the next couple of weeks.

 

[Dieselman]

But in the end, the strength of feeling on global warming (right or wrong and I've posted my views) is such that it is prudent to assume we all need to get out of band G cars or face nasty consequences. Probably some more on band G taxes to come in the budget in the next couple of weeks.

Finally, we got there.

No one is saying don't drive a car, just chose one that pollutes less that way you avoid the charge.

This is all Ken is after.

Guido, you're gonna look good in one of these..

Or one of these if you fancy a bike..

 

[Alfie]

Finally, we got there.

No one is saying don't drive a car, just chose one that pollutes less that way you avoid the charge.

This is all Ken is after.

..

Er no. He is after more money aswell.

Its ridiculous that people are forced into changing their car and thus spending/losing thousands in the process because of one mans ill informed stupid ideas.

Edit: I think it might be worth paying the £25 once, filling the car up with diesel and sitting outside his office revving it up just to annoy him.

 

[Dieselman]

The greenest form of energy is nuclear, NO CO2 emissions and the waste can be sorted albeit over a period of years. But, and here's the rub, the US and probably most of EU will not let emerging countries have nuclear power, so they build coal fire power stations which are massively inefficient and emit mountains of bad gasses.

Only partially true.

Nuclear power isn not Carbon neutural at al, only at the point of end use.

Dust to dust the amount of carbon expelled is meant to be similar to using gas as a fuel once you take into account mining the ore, processing, transport, storage, reprocessing, re-storage and all the building and subsequent security that will be required for the 250,000 years it needs to become safe.

Interestingly a fossil fuelled power station is way more efficient then a petrol engined car and more so than a nuclear one, it seems.

Wikepedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil_fuel_power_plant

Subcritical fossil fuel power plants can achieve 36–38% efficiency. Supercritical designs have efficiencies in the low to mid 40% range, with new "ultra critical" designs using pressures of 4,400 psia (30 MPa) and dual stage reheat reaching about 48% efficiency.

Older nuclear power plants must operate below the temperatures and pressures that coal fired plants do. This limits their thermodynamic efficiency to the order of 34–37%


In adition nuclear power costs more to generate, so if we do go that way expact bigger bills.

Err...isn't that what we are debating and don't want....

 

[Dieselman]

Er no. He is after more money aswell.

Its ridiculous that people are forced into changing their car and thus spending/losing thousands in the process because of one mans ill informed stupid ideas.

Edit: I think it might be worth paying the £25 once, filling the car up with diesel and sitting outside his office revving it up just to annoy him.

These changes have been in the pipeline for a while. Surely it would have been easy to avoid this charge by not buying a gross polluting car in the first place.

Now, I'm not going to join in with the bullying and slagging off of people that dare to disagree that we have seen in this thread, so will leave readers to make up their own mind as to whether we are being totally rational or not.

Porsche are just trying to maintain their own profits by garnering public opinion through selling their own story.

Why don't they simply make a more efficient car to sell?

 

[Alfie]

Now, I'm not going to join in with the bullying and slagging off of people that dare to disagree that we have seen in this thread, so will leave readers to make up their own mind as to whether we are being totally rational or not.

What bullying? I havn't seen any from anyone. As for slagging off, its only Ken thats been slagged off as far as I can see.

 

[verytalldave]

Finally, we got there.

No one is saying don't drive a car, just chose one that pollutes less that way you avoid the charge.

This is all Ken is after.

Guido, you're gonna look good in one of these..

Or one of these if you fancy a bike..

Not quite true.
Kens eventual desire is to rid London of ALL cars.
Quote.....................
[SIZE=-1]“I hate cars. If I ever get any powers again I`d ban the lot.” [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Ken Livingstone Sunday Times 21 November 1999.[/SIZE]

Please note the use of the word "lot".
Not "those that emit over 226g/km of CO2" or "4x4's".
Ban the lot.
He wont be happy until he has achieved his stated goal.

 

[prprandall51]

Finally, we got there.

No one is saying don't drive a car, just chose one that pollutes less that way you avoid the charge.

This is all Ken is after.

Guido, you're gonna look good in one of these..

Or one of these if you fancy a bike..

Now I know we can't have a serious debate - and I can see where Ken gets his support.

Guido posts on here that somebody is going to charge him £25 a day to contine to own his own car and you post a link telling him to get some Tonka Toy.

Dieselman, I assume your post was a joke, right?

 

[Dieselman]

Dieselman, I assume your post was a joke, right?

Only sort of.....it just highlights a way to not suffer any conjestion charge or road tax.



And it won't rust..

 

[Dieselman]

What bullying? I havn't seen any from anyone. As for slagging off, its only Ken thats been slagged off as far as I can see.

This isn't directed at you Alfie but each one of these posts contains referrences to members opposing the Porsche challenge being in some way either misled or in some way sub normal without substatntiating the reasoning behind the comments.
The first one actually refers to Ken as opposed to a member here.

http://www.mbclub.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=501094&postcount=2

http://www.mbclub.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=501484&postcount=14

http://www.mbclub.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=502940&postcount=24

http://www.mbclub.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=503147&postcount=46

http://www.mbclub.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=503706&postcount=72

 

[Dieselman]

Please note the use of the word "lot".
Not "those that emit over 226g/km of CO2" or "4x4's".
Ban the lot.
He wont be happy until he has achieved his stated goal.

So it's not a class thing, or communist or against Porsche or 4x4. Just car emissions as a whole.

He's just starting with the worst offenders.

Only just noticed the age of Ken's quote. Maybe slightly out of date.?

 

[jeremytaylor]

I will have to start paying 25 quid every time I drive my own car in my own street - where I live. How come that is a fair or proper system?

I thought you had to pay the Con Charge just to be on a public street in the zone, whether you drove your car or not ?

If this is still the case, you might as well get your money's worth and drive to work!!