5.4L supercharged V8 vs EQC running costs

[W1ghty]

I think I’ve just messed myself buddy

 

[BTB 500]

Hmmm i have been running a small fleet of Nissan ENV200 vans since 2015, and for the city routes and the outlying districts they are excellent, as soon as you feel the need to step out of the immediate area then the problems begin. I have just ordered two of the new 'Townstars' which is basically the new version of the eNV200 vans made in cahoots with Renault. I must say that the price now is a LOT more than the initial price i paid in 2015! And the range has only increased by around 70 miles on a full charge....

Unfortunately it looks very much like vans will go from diesel to full electric, bypassing hybrid. A few years ago VW re-introduced a petrol version of the Transporter but dropped it pretty quickly. So currently the choice is a complex/fragile EU6 diesel or an electric with dismal range.

We tow a caravan with our Vito - stopping to charge an electric one every 90 or so miles is really not a practical proposition with 10 dogs in the back Even without the caravan the range isn't enough for our typical 150-200 mile round trips, given that we'd have no way to re-charge at our destination (typically parked in the middle of a field from 08:00 to 17:00 or so).

 

[philnewmerc]

Sorry, but you've (deliberately) missed the point of why those neighbours have new posh EVs. Or PHEV's that are seldom plugged in.

They've got them as income tax dodges. They're essentially a tax-free way of avoiding both income tax AND national insurance.

We can't just dismiss or ignore this. This is why both the EV's and the PHEV's collapse in value three or four years on. It's not because they're electric, it's because we've deliberately put in a tax regime to support their initial sale.


View attachment 145999

I know.

I said in my original post: "... and probably most importantly, you are a top rate tax payer who essentially gets the car for 40% off list courtesy of the government via salary sacrifice or BIC.. on that front it just seemed like an excellent deal tbh, although the EV equivalent car does tend to cost 30 to 40% more than the ice model anyway? For a private buyer I am still not sure they make sense except as town cars where they make excellent sense."

Some neighbours are just very ignorant and though they do the tax maths (or the employer does) never do the consumption maths. One with a phev was convinced that the advertised consumption was accurate but he only plugs in once in a blue moon and has a long motorway commute - the opposite of what a phev is good at. I'm not anti EV or pro , I'm just EV-curious atm

 

[philnewmerc]

So, re the elephant above.... Your neighbour's £67k EQC is probably company owned, and expensed.

It's is barely costing him anything, in financing, depreciation, road fund licence or fuel. The company is picking up the £10k a year bill for four years. (£7k payments, tax, insurance, maintenance)

He's proud of it. And his company is probably pleased that he's pleased with it, because a) it's a status symbol - for the company and for himself;
b) they'll be paying him less because he's got that cute motor as a part of his compensation plan

He's not a tree hugger. He can't afford an ICE engine on his company plan.

View attachment 146000

Yep, I know .
The tax payer is giving out big tax cuts to mainly top rate payers and punishing company car drivers for not buying EVs or phevs. Maybe a good thing to start the ev ball rolling... Can't say i agree though. 2.5 ton leviathans are not the answer. Need Leafs and Zoes subsidised imho. But the eqc performance and serenity sounds v appealing.
Obviously when at home charging the eqc guy is having the last laugh.
Repeat: i am not anti ev, or diesel, or cars that do more than 20 mpg - read my full post, i get to this at the end. I'll no doubt end up in one eventually once lamp posts have chargers

 

[philnewmerc]

Personally I'm baffled why range extender EVs are not the ideal answer (eg like the i3 Rx or Ampera). Anyone know?

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Yep, I know .
The tax payer is giving out big tax cuts to mainly top rate payers and punishing company car drivers for not buying EVs or phevs. Maybe a good thing to start the ev ball rolling... Can't say i agree though. 2.5 ton leviathans are not the answer. Need Leafs and Zoes subsidised imho. But the eqc performance and serenity sounds v appealing.
Obviously when at home charging the eqc guy is having the last laugh.
Repeat: i am not anti ev, or diesel, or cars that do more than 20 mpg - read my full post, i get to this at the end. I'll no doubt end up in one eventually once lamp posts have chargers

All that I understand / understood.

I was trying to say something like “these folk are like the bloke in the 1980’s Cortina / Granada / Vauxhall who wasn’t as daft as he looked. He was just stuck in a company car tax / free petrol card limbo that gave him no other choice.”

We just have to work around and make the best of it a couple of owners down the line.

Not that I can get enthusiastic about these buses. As Chapman said “just add lightness.”

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Personally I'm baffled why range extender EVs are not the ideal answer (eg like the i3 Rx or Ampera). Anyone know?

An extra quarter of a tonne to add 100 miles of range.

Those who have used Range Extenders seem to migrate to the new bigger range BEVs as soon as they can.

 

[philnewmerc]

An extra quarter of a tonne to add 100 miles of range.

Those who have used Range Extenders seem to migrate to the new bigger range BEVs as soon as they can.

I would have thought a motorcycle engine and generator to add the emergency range would alleviate rsnge anxiety to truly popularise EVs and limit thr need for enormous (and usually unused) battery size... But maybe that's just me!

I get your point now ... My cls was probably a wealthy company director's company car first off

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I would have thought a motorcycle engine and generator to add the emergency range would alleviate rsnge anxiety to truly popularise EVs and limit thr need for enormous (and usually unused) battery size... But maybe that's just me!

You're right. That was exactly what they were about.

Even back in 2018, the last big update, BMW planned for REX's to outsell BEV i3's two to one.

But.... The new batteries can now give 200+ mile range, and once people get their heads around it, it's not an issue, unless people are doing longer journeys all the time.

AND.... In 2024 car manufacturers will be fined big money if BEV's aren't more than 22% of sales with the boundary gradually ratcheting up until 2035. (This all just follows on from California and the EU)

The fine is £15k per unit sold. So the REX had to go.

The government wants 22 per cent of new car sales to be all-electric from 2024,

 

[philnewmerc]

Interesting
However, real EV range is at best 2/3 of quoted and in reality more like less than 1/2 (because long motorway routes eat kwhs, charging to 80% and not wishing to get too close to empty is also a big factor) - I have a feeling you'll disagree but I've read 100s of forum posts and this seems reasonable. People are used to an easy 300 mile range minimum from ice cars, so an electric would need min 600 mile quoted range to get close. (Ignoring gov bribery with massive tax cuts for fairly wealthy people to have £70k bevs which forces the product anyway). But 600 mile= massive heavy battery which is usually unnecessary... Hence why i thought rex was a good idea, or phev. But i see why this is not the case now.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Interesting
However, real EV range is at best 2/3 of quoted and in reality more like less than 1/2 (because long motorway routes eat kwhs, charging to 80% and not wishing to get too close to empty is also a big factor) - I have a feeling you'll disagree but I've read 100s of forum posts and this seems reasonable. People are used to an easy 300 mile range minimum from ice cars, so an electric would need min 600 mile quoted range to get close. (Ignoring gov bribery with massive tax cuts for fairly wealthy people to have £70k bevs which forces the product anyway). But 600 mile= massive heavy battery which is usually unnecessary... Hence why i thought rex was a good idea, or phev. But i see why this is not the case now.

Have a look at this recent forum post on here from one of our tech gurus, confirming that he does get a range of 200 from his I3s BEV. (Albeit not on 75mph motorway blatts)

I was simply answering the question as to why the REX got canned by the EU and UK regulators

Need a 300+ mile range? Just spend £40k on something bigger, and better suited to motorway work anyway. How often do you actually do 300 miles in a day?

I'm not EVangelist, I'm just talking about what they can, and cannot do. (And why they're being forced down our throats by the CO2 lobby.)

Here's his story:
Mac's Tech car | MB Defectors to Other Marques Forum

 

[philnewmerc]

Have a look at this recent forum post on here from one of our tech gurus, confirming that he does get a range of 200 from his I3s BEV. (Albeit not on 75mph motorway blatts)

I was simply answering the question as to why the REX got canned by the EU and UK regulators

Need a 300+ mile range? Just spend £40k on something bigger, and better suited to motorway work anyway. How often do you actually do 300 miles in a day?

I'm not EVangelist, I'm just talking about what they can, and cannot do. (And why they're being forced down our throats by the CO2 lobby.)

Here's his story:
Mac's Tech car | MB Defectors to Other Marques Forum

I really like the i3 and would seriously consider one. However, 38 kwh battery capacity in that example and 4 mi/kwh (a realistic average if not hammering the motorway) gives 152 mile range. If he's getting more than 4 m/kwh then he's an outlier (good for him), or it's short slow trips, which is what EVs excel at, or, as most i see on the motorway, chugging along at 60 mph. 152 miles would be to zero and no EV driver wants to get anywhere near that and outside of home are usually fast charging to 80% as far as i can see... Making range ~100 miles. Still perfectly adequate though I'd probably hire car for holidays.

As a footnote I am intrigued why ev drivers believe their predicted range and m/kwh when we know manufacturers always exaggerate. And they never ever check their electricity records and notice the higher kwhs used (losses in charging etc).

Again, I'm not anti ev, just a bit suspicious of the excited initial claims - every forum for EVs is full of "why is my range so crap" type questions. I'm not imagining it, just trying to make sense of it. I will get one sooner or later tho, i think the idea of renewables powered car is great.... Plus at the moment the 'fuel' is cheap as chips.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

I really like the i3 and would seriously consider one. However, 38 kwh battery capacity in that example and 4 mi/kwh (a realistic average if not hammering the motorway) gives 152 mile range. If he's getting more than 4 m/kwh then he's an outlier (good for him), or it's short slow trips, which is what EVs excel at, or, as most i see on the motorway, chugging along at 60 mph. 152 miles would be to zero and no EV driver wants to get anywhere near that and outside of home are usually fast charging to 80% as far as i can see... Making range ~100 miles. Still perfectly adequate though I'd probably hire car for holidays.

As a footnote I am intrigued why ev drivers believe their predicted range and m/kwh when we know manufacturers always exaggerate. And they never ever check their electricity records and notice the higher kwhs used (losses in charging etc).

Again, I'm not anti ev, just a bit suspicious of the excited initial claims - every forum for EVs is full of "why is my range so crap" type questions. I'm not imagining it, just trying to make sense of it. I will get one sooner or later tho, i think the idea of renewables powered car is great.... Plus at the moment the 'fuel' is cheap as chips.

Understood. I was only answering the exam questions of “why are range extenders being thrown out,” and “are EV ranges unrealistic now that we’ve reached 2023?”

An I3s is a SWB town car, not a motorway hustler.

There’s not much point in comparing an ICE Audi A2 to a Porsche Taycan. Different price points and different objectives.

I still haven’t seen an EV that could match my 5.5 litre motor for cross continent performance and comfort. (Not that I could afford one until a decade down the line if it existed)

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

every forum for EVs is full of "why is my range so crap" type questions.

They’re from the same people who used fill forums for ICEs with “why is my MPG so crap” type questions.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

But.... The new batteries can now give 200+ mile range, and once people get their heads around it, it's not an issue, unless people are doing longer journeys all the time.

…and in 2021 precisely 80% of MBClubbers who completed the survey were covering 200 miles or less per week. See the details in this thread:

Average mileage in 2021? | MBClub Polls

I just had a car serviced and noticed that I had done almost exactly 3,000 miles in that car in 2021, which is much less than I used to do pre-2020, but more than I expected. It got me thinking about what our weekly average mileage per car was in 2021, and it has surprised me. I thought it...

forums.mbclub.co.uk

I must admit to me starting that thread after much debate on MBClub about EVs not having enough real world range to be viable. My hunch was that around 80% of people could make an EV work easily if they wanted too.

As it turned out 80% of people could manage with just one charge per week in a modern mid/large EV, or two charges with an older small EV with an ageing battery. For many of them it would be charged whilst sleeping, working or shopping.

You need to change your mindset to make the transition from ICE to EV. We can make that change though, we have done it before. There was a similar change of mindset involved in the transition from horse (foot) to ICE.

 

[BTB 500]

…and in 2021 precisely 80% of MBClubbers who completed the survey were covering 200 miles or less per week.

Average mileage can be misleading though - five 40 mile trips in a week would be absolutely fine in an EV, but a 200 mile trip every Saturday or Sunday (probably at motorway speeds) might not be.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Average mileage can be misleading though - five 40 mile trips in a week would be absolutely fine in an EV, but a 200 mile trip every Saturday or Sunday (probably at motorway speeds) might not be.

Yes, I know a divorced bloke who used to do that. Even in a diesel, it broke him, and ruined his career. But that wasn’t the fault of his fuel choice.

BD has a good point. EV’s are already fine enough for real world needs. But since when were vehicles about real world needs?

 

[philnewmerc]

…and in 2021 precisely 80% of MBClubbers who completed the survey were covering 200 miles or less per week. See the details in this thread:

Average mileage in 2021? | MBClub Polls

I just had a car serviced and noticed that I had done almost exactly 3,000 miles in that car in 2021, which is much less than I used to do pre-2020, but more than I expected. It got me thinking about what our weekly average mileage per car was in 2021, and it has surprised me. I thought it...

forums.mbclub.co.uk

I must admit to me starting that thread after much debate on MBClub about EVs not having enough real world range to be viable. My hunch was that around 80% of people could make an EV work easily if they wanted too.

As it turned out 80% of people could manage with just one charge per week in a modern mid/large EV, or two charges with an older small EV with an ageing battery. For many of them it would be charged whilst sleeping, working or shopping.

You need to change your mindset to make the transition from ICE to EV. We can make that change though, we have done it before. There was a similar change of mindset involved in the transition from horse (foot) to ICE.

I could make an EV work for me. A 150 mile range would be fine most of the time. And as long as it had 4 seats size isn't an issue. I normally like a powerful beautiful car but a Nissan Leaf would do if i would only come to my senses and realise cars are basically awful things and just there for transport in lieu of a good bus system and tailgating lorries for more miles per kwh and wearing a coat in a cold car to save pennies is actually more fun than a supercharger whine. If i arranged economy overnight electricity and had a wall charger installed and a roller shutter on the back yard and doggedly remembered to set an alarm to remind me to put it on charge at night and had a backup ice car on trickle charge for when i suddenly needed to be somewhere more than 150 miles away whether a wk end holiday or family emergency (and hoping that in an emergency I rememberd to note that this range is actually more like 75 miles when doing 90 not 55 on the motorway). Then yeah, it'd be fine.

Seriously though, if my employer lost his marbles and decided i need a Taycan for my commute I'd be well pleased and go on about how amazing it is... i do realise EVs can be beautiful and fast. Unfortunately though they're still >£100k mark and only seem to be affordable to high end company car drivers who aren't even that interested in them except as a massive tax advantage.

 

[Red C220]

We have a pair of Mazda MX-30's. They weren't our first choice, they were what we could get at short notice during covid and we got a great deal on them

They are designed to have a maximum range of 120 miles. They are the perfect example of a city car for someone with home or office charging facilites. Which describes us down to a T.

They excel at what they are designed to do.......in summer, spring and autumn.....winter though, that's a problem.

Once the temperatures drop below freezing the 100% charge range displayed is pretty much always 80-85 miles. Then you turn on the heaters, the window defrosters, the heated seats and your range is now 60 miles. 50% of advertised due to external temperatures.

That bit doesn't get mentioned in any of the literature.

I'll be honest, as a vehicle they have opened my mind and made me think how I use cars and what is necessary or appropriate. But the reality is the infrastructure fails you completely and there's no real sign of it catching up in time.

If these Mazda's had a genuine 180-200 mile range it would be very difficult to fault them. But they don't.

Also, if any of you are thinking of going with a Taycan, they are very impressive vehicles. But when they go wrong (not if, when) that's a different story. Porsche have sold more than they have the infrastructure to cope with. I owned mine 4 months, it was on the road 16 days of that four months. My business partner's was a similar story. We sold them both back to Porsche. I really wasn't impressed with the ambivalence of Porsche service centres when they went wrong.

My business partners car lit up like a Christmas Tree....red warnings eveywhere...do not drive, immediately return to dealer type warnings.

He phoned it in and it was 6 weeks for the earliest slot to get it to the dealer if he didn't need a loan car or 12 weeks if he did need a loan car (and that was if they had one available - so you could wait 12 weeks and find nothing is available) or you're welcome to rent something yourself sir......

£220,000 on two cars that both go wrong regularly and no real back up or assistance. So back they went and I'll not buy another one of their products again.

 

[philnewmerc]

We have a pair of Mazda MX-30's. They weren't our first choice, they were what we could get at short notice during covid and we got a great deal on them

They are designed to have a maximum range of 120 miles. They are the perfect example of a city car for someone with home or office charging facilites. Which describes us down to a T.

They excel at what they are designed to do.......in summer, spring and autumn.....winter though, that's a problem.

Once the temperatures drop below freezing the 100% charge range displayed is pretty much always 80-85 miles. Then you turn on the heaters, the window defrosters, the heated seats and your range is now 60 miles. 50% of advertised due to external temperatures.

That bit doesn't get mentioned in any of the literature.

I'll be honest, as a vehicle they have opened my mind and made me think how I use cars and what is necessary or appropriate. But the reality is the infrastructure fails you completely and there's no real sign of it catching up in time.

If these Mazda's had a genuine 180-200 mile range it would be very difficult to fault them. But they don't.

Also, if any of you are thinking of going with a Taycan, they are very impressive vehicles. But when they go wrong (not if, when) that's a different story. Porsche have sold more than they have the infrastructure to cope with. I owned mine 4 months, it was on the road 16 days of that four months. My business partner's was a similar story. We sold them both back to Porsche. I really wasn't impressed with the ambivalence of Porsche service centres when they went wrong.

My business partners car lit up like a Christmas Tree....red warnings eveywhere...do not drive, immediately return to dealer type warnings.

He phoned it in and it was 6 weeks for the earliest slot to get it to the dealer if he didn't need a loan car or 12 weeks if he did need a loan car (and that was if they had one available - so you could wait 12 weeks and find nothing is available) or you're welcome to rent something yourself sir......

£220,000 on two cars that both go wrong regularly and no real back up or assistance. So back they went and I'll not buy another one of their products again.

Very interesting. The Taycan and EQS are both very attractive to my eyes but if one spent one's own cash and that was porche's attitude I'd be cross. Did you work out what the real miles per kwh was or real range? What are you delivering by electric van?