5.4L supercharged V8 vs EQC running costs

[Bobby Dazzler]

if my employer lost his marbles and decided i need a Taycan for my commute I'd be well pleased and go on about how amazing it is... i do realise EVs can be beautiful and fast. Unfortunately though they're still >£100k mark and only seem to be affordable to high end company car drivers who aren't even that interested in them except as a massive tax advantage.

That’s the trouble. Brand new, beautiful, fast cars have always been pricey. That’s not an EV thing, it’s a brand new, beautiful, fast car thing. They’ve always been out of reach for those can’t afford them, or unjustifiable for people who can afford them but don’t really want one.

I’m guessing those who think a Taycan is way too expensive - and it is a huge amount of money - would also think a Panamera is too expensive, but I don’t see comments on forums. Same for the eTron GT and the RS 7. Oh, and the Tesla Model 3 and the Golf R.

They’re expensive cars first, and expensive EVs second.

 

[philnewmerc]

That’s the trouble. Brand new, beautiful, fast cars have always been pricey. That’s not an EV thing, it’s a brand new, beautiful, fast car thing. They’ve always been out of reach for those can’t afford them, or unjustifiable for people who can afford them but don’t really want one.

I’m guessing those who think a Taycan is way too expensive - and it is a huge amount of money - would also think a Panamera is too expensive, but I don’t see comments on forums. Same for the eTron GT and the RS 7. Oh, and the Tesla Model 3 and the Golf R.

They’re expensive cars first, and expensive EVs second.

True. My point was in order to get the benefits you have spend a lot more than on an ICE. The difference is that I can and have enjoyed driving, e.g., a fairly modern ecoboost fiesta i had, but I would not enjoy driving the equivalent electric hatchback because their limitations are still too great.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

True. My point was in order to get the benefits you have spend a lot more than on an ICE. The difference is that I can and have enjoyed driving, e.g., a fairly modern ecoboost fiesta i had, but I would not enjoy driving the equivalent electric hatchback because their limitations are still too great.

Yes, for most people saving 90% of the fuel cost doesn't offset the extra 40% that they'd pay for a new EV.

But what happens when they look at a £9k Nissan Leaf that's only done 22,000 miles under one owner?

Is that 90% fuel saving relevant then?

That's a saving of £2,000 a year for the 12k mile a year driver who charges at home with a granny cable.

 

[BTB 500]

Yes, I know a divorced bloke who used to do that. Even in a diesel, it broke him, and ruined his career. But that wasn’t the fault of his fuel choice.

BD has a good point. EV’s are already fine enough for real world needs. But since when were vehicles about real world needs?

The 200 mile run once a week is how we use our Vito ... competing with the dogs at weekends. Most of the rest of the time it's parked at home. As mentioned we would have no way to charge it at the venues we go to, and we also use it to tow a caravan longer distances in the summer. There's currently no electric equivalent that would cover this type of usage (even if we could afford it).

Of course we have another car (C300 estate) for normal day to day use, and an equivalent EV would work OK there (other than the purchase cost). Mrs BTB's trips to the south of Germany to visit her family would be rather more complicated and time-consuming though.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Even in 2030 EVs won’t suit everyone for every journey, every time, without a degree of compromise in some shape, way or form, and sometimes that’s a big compromise. That said there’s a degree of compromise with any and every car, regardless of type and drivetrain.

But it’s OK that a EV won’t suit everyone all of the time because there are alternatives now, and there will be alternatives in the future, both for permanent long term use (eg travelling further every day than the range allows) and occasional short-term use eg going on holiday).

The reality is though that, setting cost aside (and that will change over time) a significant proportion of the people who say that “an EV couldn’t ever work for me” is saying that as an excuse because they don’t like EVs and don’t want to change. Some are saying it because it truly won’t work for them.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

True. My point was in order to get the benefits you have spend a lot more than on an ICE. The difference is that I can and have enjoyed driving, e.g., a fairly modern ecoboost fiesta i had, but I would not enjoy driving the equivalent electric hatchback because their limitations are still too great.

That’s because EVs are new to market: technology gets better and less expensive over time; and new things cost more than old things. But that’s OK because everyone who can’t afford new things can wait until those new things become old things.

I wouldn’t have been able to afford a CLS 55 AMG when new, but if I really really wanted to then I might be able to now. Accounting for inflation, a car with similar performance is much less expensive than it was then too because tech gets better and cheaper.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Until EVs became mainstream I hadn’t realised how many people have to tow their twin axle caravan from Glasgow to Morocco three times every week, with 6 passengers, 4 bikes and 2 dobermans, and they must only stop for a maximum of 5 minutes once to refuel.

I’d like to see an EV do that. And until they can - and do so for a purchase price of £5k and the energy cost no more than 10% of the cost of petrol and diesel then EVs are doomed to fail. I almost forgot that must be 10% based upon the energy prices in 1993.

And don’t get me even started on charging infrastructure (there are only three working chargers in the whole of the UK and they’re all in Daventry, and the need to replace the battery packs every 6 weeks at a cost three times greater than the cost of the car is past a joke.

The batteries are made by children and raw materials are mined by corrupt governments. During manufacture those materials must circumnavigate the world six times. A diesel must travel 544k miles before it even equals the CO2 output of manufacturing one battery.

Then there’s using it. Wind turbines don’t work without storm force winds and solar panels only work in June, so the the so called green EV is using electricity produced from fossil fuels. Hello sheeple, when will you wake up and smell the diesel fumes, I mean coffee?

And let‘s not kid ourselves, when “they” eventually install enough public chargers, the national grid can’t cope with simultaneously charging 37 million EVs from stone dead to the 150% we must all insist upon in case we have to go to the airport early one morning.

Need i mention the fact that 99.2% of the population don’t have a driveway to charge their car on, and so pavements will be littered with charging cables? And 98.7% of people rent their home and there’s no way landlords will pay to install chargers.

I could go on, but I’ll leave you with these final thoughts.

I read on an anti EV forum that a member spoke to someone in the queue at the barbers, who had read in the letters page of Auto Express that a disappointed EV driver who was forced to have an EV as a company car by their employer found that:

1. The 200 mile range claimed by the manufacturer can fall to as low as 169 miles if you drive at 112 mph in the midday heat of the Sahara desert, or in temperatures below -42 degrees C. We get both extremes every day here in Luton.

2. They had to take their car back for a recall, and the dealer told them that there had been another one in for the same recall the week before, and that the senior master technician said that they had once done a warranty claim on an EV too. The headlamps misted up.

3. In 2022, at the main dealer it takes nine senior master technicians three days to make an EV safe enough to change the window wiper blades. In 1977 I changed the engine in my Ford Granada on the footpath, on my own, at night, in 20 minutes. And that’s progress?

4. The UK is accountable for 0.7% of global CO2 emissions, and privately own cars make up 0.1% of that, so unless China stop building 92 coal powered power stations every week then there’s absolutely no point doing anything about it.

EVs aren’t the solution, but that won’t stop the Government forcing everyone to buy an EV just like they forced everyone to buy a diesel. We should definitely invest in hydrogen, hydrogen is definitely the future and the infrastructure could definitely be ready by next week.

 

[rich1068]

Classic.

 

[ChrisHGTV]

Until EVs became mainstream I hadn’t realised how many people have to tow their twin axle caravan from Glasgow to Morocco three times every week, with 6 passengers, 4 bikes and 2 dobermans, and they must only stop for a maximum of 5 minutes once to refuel.

I’d like to see an EV do that. And until they can - and do so for a purchase price of £5k and the energy cost no more than 10% of the cost of petrol and diesel then EVs are doomed to fail. I almost forgot that must be 10% based upon the energy prices in 1993.

And don’t get me even started on charging infrastructure (there are only three working chargers in the whole of the UK and they’re all in Daventry, and the need to replace the battery packs every 6 weeks at a cost three times greater than the cost of the car is past a joke.

The batteries are made by children and raw materials are mined by corrupt governments. During manufacture those materials must circumnavigate the world six times. A diesel must travel 544k miles before it even equals the CO2 output of manufacturing one battery.

Then there’s using it. Wind turbines don’t work without storm force winds and solar panels only work in June, so the the so called green EV is using electricity produced from fossil fuels. Hello sheeple, when will you wake up and smell the diesel fumes, I mean coffee?

And let‘s not kid ourselves, when “they” eventually install enough public chargers, the national grid can’t cope with simultaneously charging 37 million EVs from stone dead to the 150% we must all insist upon in case we have to go to the airport early one morning.

Need i mention the fact that 99.2% of the population don’t have a driveway to charge their car on, and so pavements will be littered with charging cables? And 98.7% of people rent their home and there’s no way landlords will pay to install chargers.

I could go on, but I’ll leave you with these final thoughts.

I read on an anti EV forum that a member spoke to someone in the queue at the barbers, who had read in the letters page of Auto Express that a disappointed EV driver who was forced to have an EV as a company car by their employer found that:

1. The 200 mile range claimed by the manufacturer can fall to as low as 169 miles if you drive at 112 mph in the midday heat of the Sahara desert, or in temperatures below -42 degrees C. We get both extremes every day here in Luton.

2. They had to take their car back for a recall, and the dealer told them that there had been another one in for the same recall the week before, and that the senior master technician said that they had once done a warranty claim on an EV too. The headlamps misted up.

3. In 2022, at the main dealer it takes nine senior master technicians three days to make an EV safe enough to change the window wiper blades. In 1977 I changed the engine in my Ford Granada on the footpath, on my own, at night, in 20 minutes. And that’s progress?

4. The UK is accountable for 0.7% of global CO2 emissions, and privately own cars make up 0.1% of that, so unless China stop building 92 coal powered power stations every week then there’s absolutely no point doing anything about it.

EVs aren’t the solution, but that won’t stop the Government forcing everyone to buy an EV just like they forced everyone to buy a diesel. We should definitely invest in hydrogen, hydrogen is definitely the future and the infrastructure could definitely be ready by next week.

ha ha i enjoyed that. Curiously i now actually find myself in the position that an EV could work, as the company i work for has just bought a company i used to work for, which is 5 minutes from where i live. The old office/lab is moving to the acquired one closer to me. Although i normally work from home i could go into the office. The E250 wouldn't like this though. I could cycle but then it's more difficult if i need to pop out to see clients or then get into London on the train. But a small EV could be ideal! I would have a Twizy in a shot, or the new Citroen ami, though i think the speed is a bit of a liability for those as my route to work is on a 50mph limit in parts. The only issue is that this will have to be an additional vehicle as i'll still need the E250 (or equivalent) for long Euro adventures, and the Alfa is too precious. Maybe i should recommission the Vespa instead. I do like the Twizy though, it would have to be an old one however and they're still quite expensive.

 

[philnewmerc]

That’s because EVs are new to market: technology gets better and less expensive over time; and new things cost more than old things. But that’s OK because everyone who can’t afford new things can wait until those new things become old things.

I wouldn’t have been able to afford a CLS 55 AMG when new, but if I really really wanted to then I might be able to now. Accounting for inflation, a car with similar performance is much less expensive than it was then too because tech gets better and cheaper.

Yes, obviously, that is my point.

Not sure why I'm not being clear but here goes again: *the Fiesta was new* (mrs philnewmerc company car) and could do 400 miles on a tank. The equivalent new EV was/still is nowhere near comparable. Maybe eventually they will...

I've already noted my CLS55 would have been a wealthy individual's pride and joy (£79k ). I am relying on similar chaps willing to take massive depreciation hits so i can buy an EQS in about 10-15 year's time

 

[philnewmerc]

Yes, for most people saving 90% of the fuel cost doesn't offset the extra 40% that they'd pay for a new EV.

But what happens when they look at a £9k Nissan Leaf that's only done 22,000 miles under one owner?

Is that 90% fuel saving relevant then?

That's a saving of £2,000 a year for the 12k mile a year driver who charges at home with a granny cable.


View attachment 146048
View attachment 146045

As a second car, if you have a driveway (you're in a minority if you do btw), sounds perfect to me, i truly like them, so smooth and serene. But as a main car then 1) I'd personally find it a bit too boring and 2) the 10% of the time when just going for a drive out into the country is off the cards , or on holiday, or suddenly need to be at my parents sick bed or picking up a stranded teenager in distress... I'd find it infuriating and actually dangerous.

 

[philnewmerc]

Until EVs became mainstream I hadn’t realised how many people have to tow their twin axle caravan from Glasgow to Morocco three times every week, with 6 passengers, 4 bikes and 2 dobermans, and they must only stop for a maximum of 5 minutes once to refuel.

I’d like to see an EV do that. And until they can - and do so for a purchase price of £5k and the energy cost no more than 10% of the cost of petrol and diesel then EVs are doomed to fail. I almost forgot that must be 10% based upon the energy prices in 1993.

And don’t get me even started on charging infrastructure (there are only three working chargers in the whole of the UK and they’re all in Daventry, and the need to replace the battery packs every 6 weeks at a cost three times greater than the cost of the car is past a joke.

The batteries are made by children and raw materials are mined by corrupt governments. During manufacture those materials must circumnavigate the world six times. A diesel must travel 544k miles before it even equals the CO2 output of manufacturing one battery.

Then there’s using it. Wind turbines don’t work without storm force winds and solar panels only work in June, so the the so called green EV is using electricity produced from fossil fuels. Hello sheeple, when will you wake up and smell the diesel fumes, I mean coffee?

And let‘s not kid ourselves, when “they” eventually install enough public chargers, the national grid can’t cope with simultaneously charging 37 million EVs from stone dead to the 150% we must all insist upon in case we have to go to the airport early one morning.

Need i mention the fact that 99.2% of the population don’t have a driveway to charge their car on, and so pavements will be littered with charging cables? And 98.7% of people rent their home and there’s no way landlords will pay to install chargers.

I could go on, but I’ll leave you with these final thoughts.

I read on an anti EV forum that a member spoke to someone in the queue at the barbers, who had read in the letters page of Auto Express that a disappointed EV driver who was forced to have an EV as a company car by their employer found that:

1. The 200 mile range claimed by the manufacturer can fall to as low as 169 miles if you drive at 112 mph in the midday heat of the Sahara desert, or in temperatures below -42 degrees C. We get both extremes every day here in Luton.

2. They had to take their car back for a recall, and the dealer told them that there had been another one in for the same recall the week before, and that the senior master technician said that they had once done a warranty claim on an EV too. The headlamps misted up.

3. In 2022, at the main dealer it takes nine senior master technicians three days to make an EV safe enough to change the window wiper blades. In 1977 I changed the engine in my Ford Granada on the footpath, on my own, at night, in 20 minutes. And that’s progress?

4. The UK is accountable for 0.7% of global CO2 emissions, and privately own cars make up 0.1% of that, so unless China stop building 92 coal powered power stations every week then there’s absolutely no point doing anything about it.

EVs aren’t the solution, but that won’t stop the Government forcing everyone to buy an EV just like they forced everyone to buy a diesel. We should definitely invest in hydrogen, hydrogen is definitely the future and the infrastructure could definitely be ready by next week.

Very funny. Some people certainly don't realise how far EVs have come. I certainly think they're very nice in many aspects . Not sure if that has been deliberately missed or if I'm not clear . However, EVs on the motorway are rather sad looking things pootling along at 60 max... all that horsepower but not much hay i suppose one might say .

But, my silly rant had elements of truth about the consequences of limited range if an EV is your only car. Presumably you have an EV.... Or do you?

I'd be happy with an EV in theory but I also would rather run one car, and at the moment, with no driveway (or even guaranteed parking near the house, so no cheap charging), and only range-limited EVs on the market, an EV is not sensible for me as an only car, or even as a second car, unless i destroy half the garden for a drive, which I don't want to, tho many neighbours have

 

[BTB 500]

Joking aside when we went to Crufts this year I was astonished to see that a huge event venue like the NEC had just 22 slow charging points, only 8 of which could be booked in advance (which costs £25!). They said they would be installing more this year but that hasn't happened yet:

 

[philnewmerc]

EV golden range rule seems to be:
Drive like a normal human= 1/2 the stated range.
Drive like EV hyper miler and get 2/3 the stated range.
Drive as above but at city speeds and you might get 4/5 the range.

Paradoxically a pretty decent range if you do town driving and a crap range if you drive at 80 mph.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Joking aside when we went to Crufts this year I was astonished to see that a huge event venue like the NEC had just 22 slow charging points, only 8 of which could be booked in advance (which costs £25!). They said they would be installing more this year but that hasn't happened yet:


View attachment 146093

Most EV owners won't need to use a charger because they'll have charged overnight at home. Because that's what people do. You plug your vehicle in and it has full range when you start the day.

Anyone coming from further afield, say from Edinburgh, 300 miles away, would use one of the hundreds of chargers around the NEC and Birmingham Airport: BP Pulse (which has 37 chargers at the NEC East 3 Car Park alone), GridServe and so on, or just a charger on the route

Worryingly Crufts appears not to have its own petrol station. Should we be worried about this?

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

If you want to laugh at the EV usage being forced on us by American and European governments, visit the BMW PGA at Wentworth in September.

They operate a fleet of BMW SUV EV's to ferry Wrinklies to and from the car parks.

And how do they keep those EV's charged, in the middle of a large golf course?

They have discreet diesel powered generators hidden out of public view.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

ha ha i enjoyed that. Curiously i now actually find myself in the position that an EV could work, as the company i work for has just bought a company i used to work for, which is 5 minutes from where i live. The old office/lab is moving to the acquired one closer to me. Although i normally work from home i could go into the office. The E250 wouldn't like this though. I could cycle but then it's more difficult if i need to pop out to see clients or then get into London on the train. But a small EV could be ideal! I would have a Twizy in a shot, or the new Citroen ami, though i think the speed is a bit of a liability for those as my route to work is on a 50mph limit in parts. The only issue is that this will have to be an additional vehicle as i'll still need the E250 (or equivalent) for long Euro adventures, and the Alfa is too precious. Maybe i should recommission the Vespa instead. I do like the Twizy though, it would have to be an old one however and they're still quite expensive.

Twizy is great but, I’d poop myself on a 50 mph road! I don’t like joining 70 MPH dual carriageways in my Smart unless they have a long slip road! !

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

As a second car, if you have a driveway (you're in a minority if you do btw), sounds perfect to me, i truly like them, so smooth and serene. But as a main car then 1) I'd personally find it a bit too boring and 2) the 10% of the time when just going for a drive out into the country is off the cards , or on holiday, or suddenly need to be at my parents sick bed or picking up a stranded teenager in distress... I'd find it infuriating and actually dangerous.

And the answer to my question is? I said " Yes, for most people saving 90% of the fuel cost doesn't offset the extra 40% that they'd pay for a new EV. But what happens when they look at a £9k Nissan Leaf that's only done 22,000 miles under one owner? Is that 90% fuel saving relevant then? That's a saving of £2,000 a year for the 12k mile a year driver who charges at home with a granny cable."

For more than half the country, the EV will sit on a driveway fully charged because people just plug them in when they get home. You charge when you can, not when you have to. Unlike petrol and diesel vehicles which have to be taken to the petrol station because they're low on fuel.

Sorry to hear about your parents and teenagers being in distress and needing urgent help. That must be very worrying for you.

 

[ChrisHGTV]

Twizy is great but, I’d poop myself on a 50 mph road! I don’t like joining 70 MPH dual carriageways in my Smart unless they have a long slip road! !

What, even in your Smart ForFour AMG Black Series Night Edition Premium Plus 125 Powered by Brabus?

I’d like to have a go in a Twizy just to see what they’re like. For sure I think the ami would be a liability as they’re really slow which is a shame as I really like the concept.

 

[philnewmerc]

And the answer to my question is? I said " Yes, for most people saving 90% of the fuel cost doesn't offset the extra 40% that they'd pay for a new EV. But what happens when they look at a £9k Nissan Leaf that's only done 22,000 miles under one owner? Is that 90% fuel saving relevant then? That's a saving of £2,000 a year for the 12k mile a year driver who charges at home with a granny cable."

For more than half the country, the EV will sit on a driveway fully charged because people just plug them in when they get home. You charge when you can, not when you have to. Unlike petrol and diesel vehicles which have to be taken to the petrol station because they're low on fuel.

Sorry to hear about your parents and teenagers being in distress and needing urgent help. That must be very worrying for you.

I think I actually said the 9k Leaf idea sounds great in theory for many people but as an only car for me it has significant drawbacks... was that not clear? The thing that seems to be blissfully ignored is I have raised about 3 notable issues which are not 'insurmountable' or 'wrong headed' or 'mean EV drivers are stupid' or anything like that, but they are real:
1 to get equivalent EV performance and range to ICE reqires lots more ££££ upfront (obviously this will get better eventually but not yet) and even then the range is just nit there.
2 nearly half of people in the UK don't have driveways - what do they do? And they will not benefit from cheap overnight energy (one assumes, maybe I'm wrong there)
3 and in an emergency or some situation requiring urgency if one's only car is an EV do owners not feel at all anxious about how an urgent trip would go? (Yes they might have a full tank but 200 miles at 65 mph in an emergency sounds miserable)