A classic, parking ticket tale

[pammy]

Is it just me...........and not having a go at you Ash but

You pulled into a no parking/waiting area to make a phone call. I wouldn't dream of stopping on double yellows to make a phone call - OK the attendant was maybe a bit over zealous and it would have been better if they'd just given you a nudge and said shift it - but at the end of the day you parked. The fact you didn't get out is irrelevant imho - you stopped your car to undertake an activity in a no parking spot. Is it worth all this effort? I'd rather just pay up - but then I did only get 7% in the tight was test .

 

[Ashley]

Simon I would love to moot this all night but I am taking kids out for the night.

The real problem is not fixed penalties as these have recourse to the courts and HM Judges and this is has been amened from a constitutional view and is acceptable as we have the choice to have the matter heard by a judge . But PCNs have no recourse to the courts and as such are constitutional lacking.

Our Constitution is piece mail and underused but the fact is that it still is in place to protect us.

 

[Ashley]

Is it just me...........and not having a go at you Ash but

You pulled into a no parking/waiting area to make a phone call. I wouldn't dream of stopping on double yellows to make a phone call - OK the attendant was maybe a bit over zealous and it would have been better if they'd just given you a nudge and said shift it - but at the end of the day you parked. The fact you didn't get out is irrelevant imho - you stopped your car to undertake an activity in a no parking spot. Is it worth all this effort? I'd rather just pay up - but then I did only get 7% in the tight was test .

I got 87%

 

[pammy]

I got 87%

lol - nuff said

 

[robert.saunders]

Bill of Rights has been decreed meaningless I'm afraid - not only will the Local Authority ignore it but NPAS adjudication will also, so please don't (and I mean this in the nicest possible way) waste your time on that one.

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/faq/faq.htm?id=66 (In this link you will see reference to AppealNow - I don't agree with what that guy/company does but that's my opinion, as some of you may recall from previous threads)

The date is an issue but you're reminded that this will only be a point of concern for the NPAS to decide upon (all cases are decided upon on an individual basis by NPAS), unlikely that the LA will worry about it too much (my opinion only), and tbh I can understand that. Therefore, as Pammy has said you were parked illegally but I'm making no judgement upon that, merely offering factual advice and information from my own knowledge.

Don't get too heavy with the parking team, it's a job and they're human.

Rob

 

[fredfloggle]

The only way to get off , is to be a convicted terrorist and Work on London Underground - Ken will personally tear up the ticket .
I'll assume this guy didn't give you a tap on the window , and politely ask you to move on ? if he did , what a tw4t he is .
Appeal , and tell them you have stopped because someone had stolen your engine - I may be wrong , but I don't think you can be ticketed for a vehicle that cannot move under it's own power -
Appeal anyhow - if what you have said is true , this is only your contribution to the benefits of a failed deportee .

 

[dougal74]

Rob - you are the expert but presumably the thrust of the appeal should be that the no loading PCN was not the most appropriate form of reponse to the contravention, i.e. the officer could and should have either a) asked him to move on and/or b) suggested that if he didn't do so he would get a ticket and c) that there were no reasonable grounds for the officer to assume that he was intending to load something into or out of the car.
Surely you are allowed to "stop", just not to "wait" and the officers responsibility was to ensure he was doing the former and not the latter - by definition you can't issue an "instant" PCN for the former?

 

[bibamus]

You could always say your car had broken down and you were phoning for assistance. Then, quite by chance, it started again and you drove off!

Allan

 

[robert.saunders]

Rob - you are the expert but presumably the thrust of the appeal should be that the no loading PCN was not the most appropriate form of reponse to the contravention, i.e. the officer could and should have either a) asked him to move on and/or b) suggested that if he didn't do so he would get a ticket and c) that there were no reasonable grounds for the officer to assume that he was intending to load something into or out of the car.
Surely you are allowed to "stop", just not to "wait" and the officers responsibility was to ensure he was doing the former and not the latter - by definition you can't issue an "instant" PCN for the former?

By and large, the contravention has occured, and a PCN has been issued. The Attendant should have asked Ashley to move on? Perhaps he did, perhaps he didn't - the Attendant doesn't have to, however - but good practice for me certainly would be that the friendly "move on" is more appropriate.

An appeal can be based upon this, sure - but it won't make a lot of difference really. The LA can use discretion and NPAS cannot force the Authority to use discretion. You're appealing to the better nature of the parking team, but if their policy is to follow this through, not a lot can be done about it. Equally, they may have a policy to allow a write-off in this instance, but I can't speak for them obviously.

Hope helps

Rob

 

[219]

Was the street a 'clearway' ?

Otherwise a 'momentary' stop shouldn't have been a problem ?

How long were you sitting there ?

 

[robert.saunders]

If you read the thread, this has already been covered - what type of contravention it is?

Unless I'm an idiot!

Rob

 

[219]

Well , I HAD read the thread and it seemed there was an ALLEGATION of some sort of loading offence . Clearly , if Ashley had made no attempt to load or unload anything then this is incompetent .

From my reccollections , the only road you are not permitted to STOP on is a 'Clearway' ; on other roads you are permitted to stop for up to two minutes to pick up/set down passengers , even where yellow 'no waiting' lines are present . A 'momentary' stop for some other reason should also not be an offence .

I don't know how long Ashley was sat there for ( if it was for a lengthy period he has no way out ) but he might have pulled over and been phoning his wife/other person to say 'I'm outside now' and as long as the operation was complete within two minutes no offence would have been comitted .

 

[robert.saunders]

To be technical, not offences, they are civil contraventions in this instance. It's Road Traffic Act 1991 here.

No such thing as 2minute grace I'm afraid - complete myth.

And an 02 contravention is, as already stated, an instant PCN - no questions needed to be asked by the Attendant - if this was a London borough, they have CCTV issued postal PCN for these contraventions and you can pause for a couple of seconds against a waiting/loading restriction and you'll get your £100 PCN via your postman. This will roll outside of London in a few years when the Traffic Management Act 2004 becomes enforceable.

Rob

 

[219]

Robert , I stand corrected on the 'contravention' as opposed to 'offence' matter .

However the "2 minute rule" most certainly was not a myth : it is clearly referred to in older versions of "The Highway Code" although , interestingly , there is no mention of it in the current edition ! This was 'drummed into' me when I was learning to drive and later when I underwent advanced training (admittedly many years ago) along with the fact that the only roads you were not permitted to stop on , as opposed to parking or waiting , were Clearways ( although the '2 minute rule' for boarding or alighting was still allowed on Urban Clearways ) . Perhaps it has been quietly deleted sometime in the last 30 years .

 

[Swiss Toni]

Robert , I stand corrected on the 'contravention' as opposed to 'offence' matter .

However the "2 minute rule" most certainly was not a myth : it is clearly referred to in older versions of "The Highway Code" although , interestingly , there is no mention of it in the current edition ! This was 'drummed into' me when I was learning to drive and later when I underwent advanced training (admittedly many years ago) along with the fact that the only roads you were not permitted to stop on , as opposed to parking or waiting , were Clearways ( although the '2 minute rule' for boarding or alighting was still allowed on Urban Clearways ) . Perhaps it has been quietly deleted sometime in the last 30 years .

The Highway Code is just that, a code, not law.

Much the same as the Green Cross Code, Morse Code and Codes of Honour - they mean nothing in court.

 

[robert.saunders]

I wouldn't rely too long on your "2 minute rule" - once the TMA04 becomes operational, EVERY highway authority (therefore, pretty much every Local Authority) will be forced to undertake civil enforcement of their waiting restrictions/parking controls upon the highway - you have the DfT to thank for that.

I'm afraid I wasn't brought up on the 2 minute rule, and in my line of work it does not exist - and seeing as this thread is about a civil contravention issued to Ashley, my advice is therefore constructive and based upon my employment with Peterborough City!

Rob

 

[219]

The Highway Code is just that, a code, not law.

Indeed . However , the vast majority of it IS based on law abd can be backed up somewhere or other .

 

[richard]

And you wonder why all the local shops are going out of business ..

Its just too hard/risky/expensive to use them - as all the parking has gone / become chargeable for etc, and if the shop is suddenly busy you have the choice of leaving all your shopping , or getting a ticket (or over-paying the council every time you go shopping).

Its so short sighted, because as the local shops go, so does a lot of revenue for the local council.

aaagggghhhh

R

 

[Swiss Toni]

Indeed . However , the vast majority of it IS based on law abd can be backed up somewhere or other .

You are right (of course) and the point of the code is to say "if you do it this way, you shouldn't fall foul of the law" - however, the law does try to allow for some of the more limited circumstances that real life throws up.

By breaking the code you don't always break the law.

 

[uumode]

Right, bit more complicated sadly.

02 is an "instant PCN" ie there were loading restrictions in place at the time you "waited/parked". The Attendant doesn't have to give any observation time at all.

It strikes me a little harsh, but the reality of the law is as I described.

Worth an appeal, because even though the Highway where loading restrictions are in place is an "instant PCN" discretion still needs to be observed by the Attendant - passengers for example may still alight where a loading restriction is in place, and adjudication look dimly upon the Attendant and indeed the Local Authority if penalty charge notices are handed out a bit too harshly, and more importantly payment pursued.

In this case, it sounds like the Attendant did their job correctly - whether you agree with the enforcement or not - but it's down to the parking appeals team to decide whether to pursue this PCN for payment, so you need to appeal it. Remember, your initial appeal could be rejected but you will still have the chance for a formal representation but you lose the right of reduced payment should you have to pay, but that's also the law as it stands. Fomally you may decide to take your representation (if rejected again) to NPAS for an adjudicator to make a decision.

I assume the PCN has 2 dates on it - date of notice (or issue) AND date of contravention? If it has only 1 date, let me know.

Rob

I've seen a police van on double yellow and half mounted on the pavement while attending a speed camera box. Guess they are 'immune', or they should do what other careful delivery drivers do, park around the corner without double yellow, and walk to the site.