Anyone watch Mr Bates vs The Post Office ?

[oldguy57]

We as a family are right in the middle of this with the PO. It was one of the businesses our family owned.

I cannot begin to tell you the hurdles and heartache the PO have put us through over the last 20 years - it’s actually unforgivable.

They accused us of stealing an amount less than the cost of servicing an E63 at the dealer. The post office was closed and many people lost their jobs.

There is not enough space in the internet for me to go on about it.

I have spoken to the majority of people you may have seen on TV/Twitter etc and a lot of them are broken both financially and mentally.

The debates of right and wrong can continue here but I will say one thing. The overwhelming majority of sub postmasters are real salt of the earth people who would not touch the crowns money. They were literally pillars of their communities and held the trust of many many in those communities. Episode 1 of the drama showed where Jo kept a pensioner’s payment book in the PO so the lady wouldn’t lose it. That is pure trust.

This was usual practice along with other tasks such as explaining personal forms, filling in other forms for those who couldn’t read or write (very common) and the list could go on.

“The behaviour of the executives” as one of you put is to blame entirely.

I could go on and on and on.

Well said and this highlights the personal affects of this total debacle. I can't begin to imagine what it must have been like to go through this. Still some seem to dismiss the whole affair - must be galling for the victims.

 

[oldguy57]

Because you said “my father had to personally balance every till at the end of every day. Each till was allocated to a staff member and any under or over could be traced to that staff member. Most staff had worked at the same branch for decades and you have to remember that this was the 50's and 60's when things were completely different.”

Think about it, if it’s a casual mistake you often can’t track the cause. If it’s a deliberate action, again you can’t track it.

It was three hours to tidy up 6-7 hours worth of transactions but errors are routine.

You seem to be more conversant with Building Society auditing systems of 50/60 years ago than I am. I bow to your superior knowledge.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

You seem to be more conversant with Building Society auditing systems of 50/60 years ago than I am. I bow to your superior knowledge.

I’m making a point about basic cash controls in any financial outpost in any century, whereas you’re saying your Dad told you that accounts always balanced, and that every branch could track down and rectify every situation where two fivers got stuck together.

 

[st13phil]

The designer of the IT system is insisting on immunity from prosecution before he will appear as a witness at the public enquiry.

As an aside, wait until the first software-related deaths of driverless car crashes happen.

I confidently predict a complete lack of cooperation in any subsequent investigation / inquiry by everyone involved in the design, development and testing of the software absent immunity from prosecution.

 

[philnewmerc]

On the contrary, I believe that there were poor decisions made, and the tragic consequences for some of those accused could and should have been anticipated.

That doesn’t mean that hundreds of Post Office middle management were evil nor should be accused of being capable of war crimes and attrocities.

We all make poor decisions. If you were to look at the evidence you'd see many of these PO poor decisions were actually immoral decisions (at best). It's heart warming that you believe this is a **** up and not a conspiracy to conceal the truth, but the evidence suggests otherwise. The PO has, since about 2020, admitted it was wrong and the feet dragging has been by the legal/gov processes, but before then there was about 20 years of PO lies and what I think a normal person would say is immoral or cruel behaviour, not poor decisions. For example:

• The PO acting as police investigation and CPS rolled into one and choosing to prosecute where no evidence existed: (the fact that some postmaster corrected the computer account shortages manually was seen as guilty behaviour).
• Pressuring sub postmasters to accept lower level guilty plea bargains in order to either avoid prison or resume business: for people almost driven mad by the fact that they know they're innocent but have to plead guilty to avoid prison, this is incredibly distressing.
• In fact, we know four people committed suicide. Martin Griffiths was hounded for a £100k shortfall and going mad not understanding if he was making mistakes or if staff were stealing from him he stepped in front of a bus. After his suicide the PO visited and offered his widow £120k (enough to cover the so called debt and £20k left over) but only if she signed THAT DAY and signed a confidentiality agreement banning her from sharing Martin's story with the other victims.
• Is giving a widow 24 hours to decide if she should accept £120k or have zero and a £100k debt a poor decision or an immoral one? I'd say immoral at best.
• Even when they were not able to successfully prosecute (as in Mr Bates case) they still often ended the contract, ending their income and reputation anyway. Mr Bates and his misses had to find new occupations, not easy when you've had your contract terminated due to alleged false accounting.
• End of contract means no business = have to live on life savings until a new job paying the same comes along. That's why "loosing life savings" is real. Or paying the shortfall from lifesavings in order to keep the business.
• The PO told each Horizon victim there were no other complaints when they knew there were.
• Some PO investigators lied to say that evidence existed of theft in order to get them to admit false accounting charges - you might be strong enough to resist all these lies, but obviously many were not.
• The legal review by CCRC has noted that this case was an affront to the public conscience... but not everyone agrees it seems!
• From 2013 the POs own investigation revealed (it was suspected much earlier) that Horizon was to blame... they carried on prosecuting anyway... poor decision?

The Times today on Martin Griffiths suicide: (www.thetimes.co.uk)

"Over the next four years he put £100,000 of his own money into the system to balance the books as his mental health deteriorated. In September 2013, at the age of 59, he left home early, leaving a note apologising to his family, and took his own life. Caveen said that his wife, Gina, was pressured into signing a £120,000 settlement deal and non-disclosure agreement [NDA] with a payout that prevented the full story from emerging until 2022. Caveen has revealed that the Post Office director Angela Van Den Bogerd, played by Katherine Kelly in the ITV drama, travelled to the Wirral to get “Gina to sign the NDA”. She was given only 24 hours to accept what campaigners have called a “pistol to the head” deal."

The 24 hours to sign or you get nothing is the sort of cheap trick that a mobile phone salesman would use to get a 20 quid contract signed... By this time the senior management knew Horizon was faulty: despicable behaviour not a poor decision.

As for 'are these sorts of people capable of war crimes?'. I'm very sorry I muddied the water with the Nazi comment because it is a massive distraction (I'm just fascinated by Nazi history so slip into thinking about them too often!). All I can say - hopefully more clearly - is that the attitude of 'this person may go to prison but at least I get my pay rise / won't be seen as a boat rocker' is a pretty good indication of a willingness to do something profoundly immoral, or ignore something profoundly immoral, for personal gain... make of that what you will.

 

[philnewmerc]

I’ve only been following this for the last decade or so. It’s been well covered in the Computing and Financial press. What was it the Times said? “We’ve done 200 articles on the Post Office and no-one’s been interested. Now they do one play and everyone’s all over this.”

That’s how I knew that 700 Postmasters hadn’t ALL lost their homes and their entire life savings following the installation of 20,000 Horizon terminals 25 years ago. Some did but not 700.

And that’s how I knew that the Post Office were encouraging Postmasters to come forward and pick up those substantial compensation payments last Summer. 2,000 Postmasters had picked up £100 million by then, but the most serious cases were mired in admin.

I will take time out to watch Toby Jones. He’s a great actor who I met a few times through his dad. How do you identify the fictionalised dialogue and story lines within the play?

Any thoughts on Debicki and The Crown? Should there be an Enquiry or an Apology from the Royal Family following her Golden Globe winning performance? It’s appalling what they did to her.

Yes Toby Jones is great in the drama - and for what it's worth I do think it's very well done and compelling viewing.

Not sure they got the full 100 million actually (but I have to get back to work and no time to google it!), but even so that's 50k each on average: for being tormented for years. Sounds pathetic to me.

I know you're only saying lets not exaggerate, which is fine, but this potentially is the largest miscarriage of justice ever seen, "an affront to the social conscience"... it needs to be understood that way imho. The vast majority of the time it is **** up not conspiracy, but this case is the exception.

Regarding doubting loosing life savings:
Even if a postmaster did not put in their own own money to make the computer system happy, and even if they refused to admit guilt (like Mr Bates) they sometimes were told to end their business (like Mr Bates). If you have life savings then you have to live on them until you and your wife find jobs that pay enough to get back to square 1 and doing so knowing the reference from the PO for your next job is going to be pretty damning, this means you'll burn through a lot of life savings until you get back on an even keel. I hope that makes sense.

Immoral?:

‘The Post Office pushed my brother to suicide — they have blood on their hands’

Martin Griffiths took his life after being hounded for £100,000 that he was wrongly accused of stealing. His sister, Jayne Caveen, says she cannot move on until ‘those responsible are behind bars’

www.thetimes.co.uk

 

[optimusprime]

RIP Martin .And our thought are with you.

 

[philnewmerc]

PS I was thinking aloud when I mentioned Nazis (which was a mistake) about how ordinary people (which vast majority of Nazis were) are capable of doing evil (or at least very immoral) things when there is personal gain to be had, or the risk of being seen as a trouble maker is present... I'm fascinated by the subject but it was a mistake to raise it here. I was not saying all those middle managers and accountants and IT nerds were evil. I'm saying that some ordinary IT nerds, accountants and managers have in this case done profoundly immoral things in order to conceal the biblically massive balls up (which if it had been admitted would have caused absolute bedlam... hence it could not be admitted).

To me it's hard not to see this action below as evil, but surely it is immoral at best?:

‘The Post Office pushed my brother to suicide — they have blood on their hands’

Martin Griffiths took his life after being hounded for £100,000 that he was wrongly accused of stealing. His sister, Jayne Caveen, says she cannot move on until ‘those responsible are behind bars’

www.thetimes.co.uk

 

[st13phil]

Good to see that the BBC, after much searching, has finally found its angle on the Horizon scandal:

Racism affected how we were treated over Horizon, says Post Office victims

The workers say they believe racism affected the way people were treated in the Horizon scandal

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Regarding doubting loosing life savings:
Even if a postmaster did not put in their own own money to make the computer system happy, and even if they refused to admit guilt (like Mr Bates) they sometimes were told to end their business (like Mr Bates). If you have life savings then you have to live on them until you and your wife find jobs that pay enough to get back to square 1 and doing so knowing the reference from the PO for your next job is going to be pretty damning, this means you'll burn through a lot of life savings until you get back on an even keel. I hope that makes sense.

Immoral?:

‘The Post Office pushed my brother to suicide — they have blood on their hands’

Martin Griffiths took his life after being hounded for £100,000 that he was wrongly accused of stealing. His sister, Jayne Caveen, says she cannot move on until ‘those responsible are behind bars’

www.thetimes.co.uk

Once again, it was claimed that 700 had lost their life savings and that most had lost their homes. I said that obviously wasn't true, and this false claim again undermines the case. Some lost their life savings - and indeed their sanity and lives, but not all. As I've said, right from the beginning, they have a solid case and they've been abused, but exaggerating the story, based on the drama, undermines that case. In just the same way that claiming that the boring accountants and administrators of the Post Office are like Belsen guards and "just following orders."

We're 25 years into this implementation, the Post Office pulled back on some of these cases years ago. The remedy is in process.

Lets focus on rectifying the serious injustices and not pretend that all 700+ were in worst situation that some of them were.

Again your claim that "the reference for your next job is going to be pretty damning" is simply wrong. That's not how HR works. Formal references are meaningless. If you hire someone who has been through a legal case or been dismissed because of a financial squabble will NOT have that recorded in their reference. You might be able to find it out, if it went to court, but only if you go hunt for it, and there was a court case.

 

[HB]

I should also mention, my father passed away at 58 years old in 2010. He was a fit strong man, never needed to go to the doctor for anything. He was also a real car enthusiast.

Through his hard work, we grew up having everything from Porsches to Sclass Mercedes outside the house. He was utterly devastated that people thought he had stolen money from the post office. He carried that weight on his shoulders and died not knowing that he was proven innocent of any wrong doing.

We showed the post office that we simply had no need to steal as we had a number of businesses and no financial issues at all. They simply shut the post office and said they had to investigate.

As you know now, they made up their own evidence etc.

 

[st13phil]

He was utterly devastated that people thought he had stolen money from the post office. He carried that weight on his shoulders and died not knowing that he was proven innocent of any wrong doing.

Quite apart from the financial harms done to individuals, the personal reputational damage was substantial and must not be underestimated. I'm sorry you and your family had to go through this.

 

[st13phil]

Again your claim that "the reference for your next job is going to be pretty damning" is simply wrong. That's not how HR works. Formal references are meaningless. If you hire someone who has been through a legal case or been dismissed because of a financial squabble will NOT have that recorded in their reference. You might be able to find it out, if it went to court, but only if you go hunt for it, and there was a court case.

While my experience tallies with that regarding references, it's (very) rare that the application process doesn't make enquiries of the applicant regarding unspent convictions - so the potential employer doesn't have to "go hunt for it" - and potential employers generally take a pretty negative view of candidates convicted of offences relating to dishonesty.

On a related note, I have never seen an insurance proposal or a bank account application that doesn't include a question about convictions for dishonesty, so that's two other major planks of the wrongly convicted's financial life disrupted.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

While my experience tallies with that regarding references, it's (very) rare that the application process doesn't make enquiries of the applicant regarding unspent convictions - so the potential employer doesn't have to "go hunt for it" - and potential employers generally take a pretty negative view of candidates convicted of offences relating to dishonesty.

On a related note, I have never seen an insurance proposal or a bank account application that doesn't include a question about convictions for dishonesty, so that's two other major planks of the wrongly convicted's financial life disrupted.

Agreed.

My point was about those who settled before reaching court.

The reference won’t say anything useful about behaviour or a case. But a court case can be looked up .. if .. the hiring HR team is rigorous.

To be fair to anyone who is ever in a dispute, or who goes to court, a fair recruiter “should” be asking whether any dispute or case is relevant. Any HR specialist worth her salt should say that it’s not in her company’s or the individual’s best interest to air a dispute to a future employer.

New bank accounts? Who opens new bank accounts?

 

[st13phil]

New bank accounts? Who opens new bank accounts?

Perhaps those who were summarily dismissed by the Post Office and had previously been (with hindsight) stupid enough to bank with National Girobank?

 

[TC350]

Perhaps those who were summarily dismissed by the Post Office and had previously been (with hindsight) stupid enough to bank with National Girobank?

I guess that makes me stupid (none of those who know me would argue with that!) I opened an account with National Girobank within weeks of it starting in 1968. I stayed with its successors of Alliance & Leicester and then Santander. In those 55 years I've not had a single issue. Girobank was the first bank designed with computerised operations in mind, and based on my experience employing a far better computer system than a certain other part of the Post Office!

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

Perhaps those who were summarily dismissed by the Post Office and had previously been (with hindsight) stupid enough to bank with National Girobank?

But why would they change bank?

Bank customers generally are very sticky, and slow to change accounts as they get older. Most Brits change bank once in their life, usually when they’re relatively young.

And yes,I know some jump at the drop of a hat, but as a group, they’re rare.

 

[HB]

Quite apart from the financial harms done to individuals, the personal reputational damage was substantial and must not be underestimated. I'm sorry you and your family had to go through this.

It was the personal reputation above everything else to him.

 

[st13phil]

I guess that makes me stupid

Not at all.

My "with hindsight" comment related to the likelihood that anyone dismissed as a result of unfounded allegations of dishonesty against them probably wouldn't want to have their personal finances tied up in the same organisation that had dismissed them.

 

[st13phil]

But why would they change bank?

See my post above.