Back from my Europe Trip

[kap02]

A few more pics...

 

[kap02]

more...

 

[st13phil]

Looks great - the pics made me even more excited about taking my black C350 for a long trip in June. We're going to drive down through Germany, stopping off at the MB Museum for a few hours, then into Austria. After driving over the Hahntennjoch Pass we'll head down into Italy for the infamous Stelvio Pass (hopefully it'll be open by mid-June) then along the Great Dolomites Road before driving down to Venice for a couple of days. Then it's Lakes Garda and Como before taking the coast road down to Monaco. Our drive back to Calais will take in the Route Napoleon followed by Annecy and then the Great St Bernard Pass.
https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msi...&ll=48.980217,5.405273&spn=4.708568,12.568359

Can't wait!

A couple of observations and suggestions, if I may?

• Don't forget to buy your Vignette for Austria at the border. Unlike Switzerland you need one to drive on any road in the country. Fortunately you can buy a 10-day one for €8.30
• The Great Dolomites Road is quite pleasant, but there are lots of small towns with low speed limits, lots of coaches and camper vans, and lots of speed cameras - including on the passes (I was there last year so this information is current). If you're doing Bormio to Venice on that route in one day it could turn into a grueller and if it does you'll miss a huge amount of fantastic scenery because you won't be able to afford to stop
• You're missing out a nice bit of the Route Napoleon from Grasse, but I can see that's due to a night stop. Good call to take what used to be the N75 over the Col de la Croix Haute rather than the Route Napoleon north of Digne-les-Bains though
• Your short jaunt across Switzerland will cost you CHF40 (circa £28) for a Vignette as you've routed yourself on motorways / semi-motorways. With care and very good map reading skills it's doable on other roads, but will add to the journey time. Personally, as nice as Switzerland is, I'd save it for another trip and skirt west, remaining in France and travelling through the Jura (a lovely region with some great roads and some nice places to stay)
• Heading north from Dijon up to Le Foret de L'Orient, rather than the Autoroute I'd take the D971 (formerly the N71) which is mostly fast and flowing and won't cost you any significant time penalty as it's a shorter route. Turn off around Bar-sur-Seine to your night stop

My experience of route planning software is that the journey times are often wildly optimistic when it comes to mountain roads. Assuming that the days / dates are correct on the route, some of the mountain sections will see you driving all day, with early starts and late finishes and little or no time to stop to admire all the scenery. If you're OK with that then fine, but I thought it worth mentioning.

 

[GMInsite]

CHF40 is a lot more than £2. It was around 70p to the franc when i went mid march.

Was a bit unexpected but should of researched first. Seemed quite expensive in general around switzerland.

I have 12 francs in coins i dont need so if anyone does pm me an ill post em

 

[st13phil]

CHF40 is a lot more than £2. It was around 70p to the franc when i went mid march.

I know - look again, it says "circa £28"

Also, Switzerland also has zero-tolerance speed limit enforcement and truly scary fines for breaking them. Ironically, petrol's one of the few things that's (relatively) cheap there.

 

[GMInsite]

Sorry comes up with a smiley face when i look on my phone. Haha.

Really nice roads though. Drove up through the austrian alps which was a bit scary as i bottomed out everywhere but sites were amazing

 

[kap02]

French tolls were a lot more the I expected! Although the roads were fantastic... clear, smooth and not congested!

 

[st13phil]

French tolls were a lot more the I expected

Not just French tolls that are expensive - some in Italy are far from cheap! The old rule of thumb for French Autoroute tolls used to be that they would be roughly the equivalent cost of the fuel for the same distance, but I'm not sure that still holds true as fuel prices have increased fairly dramatically over the last few years.

A useful resource is the route planner at ViaMichelin which will also tell you the toll cost of your planned journey. I found that it was more accurate regarding toll charges in France than in Italy last year, but it's a useful guide nevertheless.

Oh, and while we're on the subject of trip costs, something worth checking out for Knighterrant's trip is that many filling stations in Italy were discounting fuel on Sundays when I was last there, by 10% or more. With SP95 at the equivalent of around £1.70 / litre that can be a worthwhile saving if you time it right.

 

[Deleted member 65149]

A couple of observations and suggestions, if I may?

• Don't forget to buy your Vignette for Austria at the border. Unlike Switzerland you need one to drive on any road in the country. Fortunately you can buy a 10-day one for €8.30
• The Great Dolomites Road is quite pleasant, but there are lots of small towns with low speed limits, lots of coaches and camper vans, and lots of speed cameras - including on the passes (I was there last year so this information is current). If you're doing Bormio to Venice on that route in one day it could turn into a grueller and if it does you'll miss a huge amount of fantastic scenery because you won't be able to afford to stop
• You're missing out a nice bit of the Route Napoleon from Grasse, but I can see that's due to a night stop. Good call to take what used to be the N75 over the Col de la Croix Haute rather than the Route Napoleon north of Digne-les-Bains though
• Your short jaunt across Switzerland will cost you CHF40 (circa £28) for a Vignette as you've routed yourself on motorways / semi-motorways. With care and very good map reading skills it's doable on other roads, but will add to the journey time. Personally, as nice as Switzerland is, I'd save it for another trip and skirt west, remaining in France and travelling through the Jura (a lovely region with some great roads and some nice places to stay)
• Heading north from Dijon up to Le Foret de L'Orient, rather than the Autoroute I'd take the D971 (formerly the N71) which is mostly fast and flowing and won't cost you any significant time penalty as it's a shorter route. Turn off around Bar-sur-Seine to your night stop

My experience of route planning software is that the journey times are often wildly optimistic when it comes to mountain roads. Assuming that the days / dates are correct on the route, some of the mountain sections will see you driving all day, with early starts and late finishes and little or no time to stop to admire all the scenery. If you're OK with that then fine, but I thought it worth mentioning.

Great advice Phil, thanks. I wasn't aware of the need for the Austrian Vignette. And I've only just found out there's a €10 toll to use the Stelvio Pass (presumably each way?). I've tried to limit driving hours to a maximum of 6.5 per day (shared between SWMBO and me), but hear what you say about Google's estimate possibly being optimistic.

Because of the high cost for such a short section, I was already thinking about dropping the Swiss part of our tour. Only doing it for the Great St Bernard Pass but we'll have already enjoyed plenty others by then. Your alternative suggestions sound good. Thanks.

 

[Fotogma]

I've just done pretty much the same thing in my E320 estate amazingly (happily) at 41mpg, but mine is a diesel .. I know what you mean about it being smoother afterward

 

[st13phil]

And I've only just found out there's a €10 toll to use the Stelvio Pass (presumably each way?).

I knew that the Italian authorities were intending to put a toll on the Stelvio but wasn't aware of when it started. The toll will definitely be each way. BTW, it's worth doing it in both directions as the views are totally different. The east-west direction (i.e. the one you're doing first) is much harder to drive than west-east. You'll understand why when you've done it

I've tried to limit driving hours to a maximum of 6.5 per day (shared between SWMBO and me), but hear what you say about Google's estimate possibly being optimistic.

For the Bormio - Venezia leg, I think google maps calculated approx 6hrs. The same route on the ViaMichelin planner is 7hrs 20mins and my experience (having used the time estimates from that quite extensively) is that you'll have to drive pretty hard to achieve that time on those roads. My estimate would be 8hrs+ driving time and you'll want to factor in stops too. I can see it being a 10+ hour day in the car - which may or may not be fun.

Your alternative suggestions sound good. Thanks.

You're welcome. One other suggestion...

The Citadel at Sisteron is worth a look if you have an hour or two to spare. It's not a "must see" by any means, but it is quite interesting. It's a long, steep, climb on foot but you can go up on the tourist train for a modest fee.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Oh, and while we're on the subject of trip costs, something worth checking out for Knighterrant's trip is that many filling stations in Italy were discounting fuel on Sundays when I was last there, by 10% or more. With SP95 at the equivalent of around £1.70 / litre that can be a worthwhile saving if you time it right.

A couple of hours ago I paid 2.094 Euro/litre for V-Power in Riva del Garda

 

[st13phil]

A couple of hours ago I paid 2.094 Euro/litre for V-Power in Riva del Garda

Bargain!

While you're in the locale, did you drive up through the tunnel and down the west side of the lake in the hills? Fantastic scenery - especially if you work your way back down to the lake and the ferry opposite Torri del Benaco.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

Bargain!

While you're in the locale, did you drive up through the tunnel and down the west side of the lake in the hills? Fantastic scenery - especially if you work your way back down to the lake and the ferry opposite Torri del Benaco.

We're staying close to Garda so we travelled through the tunnels on the Eastern side, and whilst the air wasn't clear from what I could see there appeared to be much more "tunnel" on the Western side.

It hadn't occurred to me that we could have caught a car ferry though, I was thinking that we'd need to circumnavigate the lake.

I was tempted to go home via the Western road, but the rest of the Dazzlers tend to be less tolerant of driving nowhere in particular when they're cold and damp.

 

[PenelopePitstop]

Anyone visited BMW Welt and did factory trip? I'm not BMW fan but since I will be in the area it's worth stopping by.

I'm planning 4 days trip to southern Germany for May or August BH weekend. I was thinking about visiting BMW Welt on Friday because factory trips are only on weekdays, then Porsche + MB Museums on Saturday and continue my trip to Neuschwanstein Castle.

 

[effbee584]

Will do my 5th Euro Drive Holiday in September, about 3000 miles return which is about 1/3rd of my annual mileage. First three were in a W211 320cdi, last year in a CLS 320cdi. Its what these cars were built for, they come into their own on long distance hi-ish cruise speeds.

As I recall, the autobahn south of Stuttgart is de-restricted and rumoured to be used by MB and Porsche for test driving. It also brings home the extra judgement required when driving at 100mph plus. I found all drivers approaching me while I was in the outside lane overtaking were courteous and efficient, I was never tailgated with headlight flashing, I guess quite a few were at 140mph or more, 100 is enough for me otherwise I'll suffer mental damage from SWMBO.

Like KAP02, I found both generations of Sat Nav to be very accurate in all countries visited. I'll take the time out this year to visit the MB museum at Stuttgart, I guess its location is in the system under PoI's.

 

[effbee584]

• Don't forget to buy your Vignette for Austria at the border. Unlike Switzerland you need one to drive on any road in the country. Fortunately you can buy a 10-day one for €8.30.

.

Travelling north through the Brenner Pass Toll Station, I found myself in Austria before I realised without a vignette, having intended to buy one en route. I stopped at the first service station to buy one, only to see the Austrian police systematically checking all cars for a valid vignette. Got mine bought and stuck on just before they reached my car. Apparently they really like to target German registered cars????

This year I will be driving up at least one of the infamous Tour de France mountain climbs in the Mont Blanc area, probably Alpe d'Huez, so may go through the Frejus tunnel, although its a stiff 35euro each way, as is the Mont Blanc tunnel. An alternative is the D1091/N94 into Italy which looks like an interesting route. There will be about a week around the Italian lakes and will probably return via Austria and Germany to avoid the Ch40 Swiss motorway charge and visit the MB Stuttgart museum.

It is becoming very expensive to get to Italy, tolls and fuel really add up.

 

[effbee584]

I was tempted to go home via the Western road, but the rest of the Dazzlers tend to be less tolerant of driving nowhere in particular when they're cold and damp.

Be assured that the some of the western side tunnels would have the other Dazzlers on the edge of their seats, I doubt they would be bored, not sure why they would be cold and damp. Some of the tunnels are pitch dark, others very narrow with coaches steaming towards you way over the middle of the road. I have found one option is to get behind a white van and let him forge the way through. Its great fun really. Almost nowhere to stop and see the views.

 

[st13phil]

Travelling north through the Brenner Pass Toll Station, I found myself in Austria before I realised without a vignette, having intended to buy one en route. I stopped at the first service station to buy one, only to see the Austrian police systematically checking all cars for a valid vignette. Got mine bought and stuck on just before they reached my car. Apparently they really like to target German registered cars????.

Yup, the Austrian police love it. Easy money. Another thing about the Austrian police is that the uncorroborated opinion of a lone occifer is enough to get you on the wrong end of a stiff fine for speeding

This year I will be driving up at least one of the infamous Tour de France mountain climbs in the Mont Blanc area, probably Alpe d'Huez, so may go through the Frejus tunnel, although its a stiff 35euro each way, as is the Mont Blanc tunnel. An alternative is the D1091/N94 into Italy which looks like an interesting route.

It really depends on how much time you have. The Frejus Tunnel is boring and expensive, but quick. I've come back from the Italy that way a few times as I didn't have time to go over the top - until last year when I picked us a night stop in Val di Susa so we could get an early(ish - it's a holiday!) start and spend the day on the Col's getting to Annecy. Drove the Col du Mont Cenis, Col de l'Iseran, continued up the D902/D925 to Beaufort, then took the D218B up to Flumet and finished off with the D909 over the Col des Aravis to Annecy. Excellent

The D1091/N94 does look interesting

Don't forget your Umwelt sticker for Stuttgart if you're going to the museum (knighterrant will need one too).

 

[st13phil]

Be assured that the some of the western side tunnels would have the other Dazzlers on the edge of their seats, I doubt they would be bored, not sure why they would be cold and damp. Some of the tunnels are pitch dark, others very narrow with coaches steaming towards you way over the middle of the road. I have found one option is to get behind a white van and let him forge the way through. Its great fun really. Almost nowhere to stop and see the views.

I know what you mean about those tunnels

You need to be further up in the hills for the best views: take the SS240 from Riva del Garda up to Storo, then the SS237 south down the edge of Lago D'Idro to (err...) Idro, then the SP58 / SP113 down to Gargnano and the Garda lakeshore. The final section as you drop back down to the main lake offers great views