CLK430 to 55 with gearbox?

[larby]

Absolutely! It really is just as I want it and I'm not doing it for resale, I'm just looking to create my perfect car. A year later and it'll probably have a blower on too!!

First up is to finish making the car perfect as it stands, then on to new engine

James

 

[andy27168]

If your planning to do further mods like a blower at a later date, especially as your thinking of the upgraded TCU software, it might be worth considering a stand alone trans cooler, similar to the standard C43 item or even an aftermarket item.

 

[larby]

What is the standard trans cooler then? Part of the rad or something? I'm guessing it'd be a case of disconnecting the standard one and mounting/plumbing in a seperate one? Sounds like a good plan.

James

 

[andy27168]

What is the standard trans cooler then? Part of the rad or something? I'm guessing it'd be a case of disconnecting the standard one and mounting/plumbing in a seperate one? Sounds like a good plan.

James

On a 430 the standard trans cooler is incorporated in the radiator, on a C43 it is a stand alone item.

 

[amg3.6]

I was also thinking of putting 55 gearbox in my c43 might go for the 55 conversion in the new year

 

[Pauljay]

Hi Larby

I've just come across your thread as I'm looking more on this site now (I'm a regular Stateside).

I don't want to burst your bubble but you really would be better/cheaper off selling your car and buying a CLK55 AMG.

I did the 55 conversion a couple of years ago and it wasn't cheap!

Yes the engine will drop straight in but you will have ECU problems.

Firstly the 55 ECU and engine harness will not work on a 430. The 55 ECU is physically diffferent and the harness has a few extra wires on it for an extra pair of O2 sensors and a secondary air pump (used for emissions).

Yes, you can use your own ECU and engine harness but the 55 engine will perform like a 430! You will have more power and torque low down and mid range but you will have no power up top.

The C43 can use their ECUs because they have an AMG ECU, it will self learn so tuning isn't necessary.

You can order a 55s ECU but it will need to have your chassis number on it (very hard to get). Mercedes do not like modified cars! DO NOT BUY AN ECU FROM ANOTHER 55 it won't work (chassis coding again).

There are 3 main computers in your car and all three have to agree before your car even starts!

The ECU not only controls the engine but your electrics in the car.

The 430 uses the block of the C43 but not the heads! If you look on the front of your engine block you should see an AMG stamp too. This is because the 55 is an enlarged version of a 430 albeit with different hard ware.

The only way you can use your 430 ECU is if you have a custom tune spending a day or two fine tuning the programmes! It will cost you!

You can use your gearbox because it is the same as a 55s. You must have a speed shift from '00 onwards to make it work. Shift times and torque limits in the TCU are different too. Yes you can have them altered but again it will cost you. I did not alter mine and it hasn't hurt me (although I'm getting it done just to see the difference).

There is no point in changing your drive shaft or rear differential they are the same as the 55s but have small changes. The shaft has 4 lugs not 3 as on the 430. This was done when Mercs were made properly and over kill was the norm. Your car can handle 500+ hp. The diff is marginaly different in gearing, slightly higher geared with the final drive for the 55 (2.82 on the 430 Vs 2.82.1 for the 55). This suited the characteristics of the 55s box.

I'm sorry to say but your exhaust is not an AMG exhaust. The 430 has a smaller diameter pipe all the way back from the headers. You probably just have the back box.

The brakes and suspension I can believe are AMG. It is HIGHLY unusual for your car to come from the factory with them but not impossible. If however you measure your brake disc and it isn't 330mm they are not AMG.

I don't mean to be blunt but this is coming from experience. You will tie up £5000+ in this conversion!

My car is quite special in the fact that it has celebrity connections and it being a cabriolet with a custom made hard top too! At the time I bought my car the 55AMG Cab had not been made so I set about making one. If your car is a saloon to be honest there are plenty of good ones about. If you love your car though, do it, but it will cost you more than if you were to buy a used 55.

If you decide to go ahead......nice one

Customising a car is very personal, some people won't get it but it will be as individual as the owner .

 

[andy27168]

I was also thinking of putting 55 gearbox in my c43 might go for the 55 conversion in the new year

Hi,
If you used a CLK55 GB you would have to convert your 43 to tiptronic, you would have to replace the gear selector unit possibly the prop as well, additional wiring to get the selector display in the cluster working and also the 55 TCU, and possibly some STAR coding.
Fitting an early E55 box is probably less problematic as it isn,t Tiptronic, but you will still have the prop issue.
Like i have said the 43 box performs faultlessy in my car at the moment, quic seamless changes, and ever eager to kick down when required.
If you manage to make Olly's 43 meet i,ll take you out in it and you can decide for yourself, if you can wait till then to make your decsion.
If you do decide to do the 55 conversion, i do recommend you getting the box and TC reconditioned, to ensure it is in tip top condition for added power and torque of the 55 motor.

 

[larby]

Hi Larby

I've just come across your thread as I'm looking more on this site now (I'm a regular Stateside).

I don't want to burst your bubble but you really would be better/cheaper off selling your car and buying a CLK55 AMG.

I did the 55 conversion a couple of years ago and it wasn't cheap!

Yes the engine will drop straight in but you will have ECU problems.

Firstly the 55 ECU and engine harness will not work on a 430. The 55 ECU is physically diffferent and the harness has a few extra wires on it for an extra pair of O2 sensors and a secondary air pump (used for emissions).

Yes, you can use your own ECU and engine harness but the 55 engine will perform like a 430! You will have more power and torque low down and mid range but you will have no power up top.

The C43 can use their ECUs because they have an AMG ECU, it will self learn so tuning isn't necessary.

You can order a 55s ECU but it will need to have your chassis number on it (very hard to get). Mercedes do not like modified cars! DO NOT BUY AN ECU FROM ANOTHER 55 it won't work (chassis coding again).

There are 3 main computers in your car and all three have to agree before your car even starts!

The ECU not only controls the engine but your electrics in the car.

The 430 uses the block of the C43 but not the heads! If you look on the front of your engine block you should see an AMG stamp too. This is because the 55 is an enlarged version of a 430 albeit with different hard ware.

The only way you can use your 430 ECU is if you have a custom tune spending a day or two fine tuning the programmes! It will cost you!

You can use your gearbox because it is the same as a 55s. You must have a speed shift from '00 onwards to make it work. Shift times and torque limits in the TCU are different too. Yes you can have them altered but again it will cost you. I did not alter mine and it hasn't hurt me (although I'm getting it done just to see the difference).

There is no point in changing your drive shaft or rear differential they are the same as the 55s but have small changes. The shaft has 4 lugs not 3 as on the 430. This was done when Mercs were made properly and over kill was the norm. Your car can handle 500+ hp. The diff is marginaly different in gearing, slightly higher geared with the final drive for the 55 (2.82 on the 430 Vs 2.82.1 for the 55). This suited the characteristics of the 55s box.

I'm sorry to say but your exhaust is not an AMG exhaust. The 430 has a smaller diameter pipe all the way back from the headers. You probably just have the back box.

The brakes and suspension I can believe are AMG. It is HIGHLY unusual for your car to come from the factory with them but not impossible. If however you measure your brake disc and it isn't 330mm they are not AMG.

I don't mean to be blunt but this is coming from experience. You will tie up £5000+ in this conversion!

My car is quite special in the fact that it has celebrity connections and it being a cabriolet with a custom made hard top too! At the time I bought my car the 55AMG Cab had not been made so I set about making one. If your car is a saloon to be honest there are plenty of good ones about. If you love your car though, do it, but it will cost you more than if you were to buy a used 55.

If you decide to go ahead......nice one

Customising a car is very personal, some people won't get it but it will be as individual as the owner .

Ahh crap.
Thanks for being honest though. So is there no way around this then? I take it I can't use a C43 ecu to get around the issue? I'm confused about the chassis code part, how does the ecu find out what my chassis code is? Why on earth is the C43 ecu self learning and the 430 isn't? Seems to me the main issue here is the chassis code issue for the ecu, are we sure there's not a way of killing this problem?
This is going to sound insane, but what about using some variety of japanese aftermarket piggyback ecu to fine tune? I've built various jap cars in the past and have used these to great effect where there was no 'off the shelf' solution, it'd be unusual if not unheard of, but in theory one could work on a merc?

As for the gearbox, I could live with it as is, especially if an oil change sharpened things up a bit, then have the TCU changed when I get a chance. Am I right in thinking only someone equipped with star can make these changes?

Looks like it is gonna be a no-go after all though in all reality, which is a shame, I really don't want to sell up and I can't find any with sub 80k miles in black, let alone for less than about £8k, which is a fair amount more than mine. Ho-hum.

Pauljay - I really appreciate your opinion, you're the only one who's done it! I don't mean to sound questioning or anything, just want to explore all the options and be sure of what I'm doing. Maybe I should just tune the 430!!

Cheers, James

 

[buccal]

It took me two years to find the right black-on black 55 (with olly's help).

They do come up every 3-4 months but vary in spec and more so condition.

I'd save for a bit so you've nine or 10k to buy either the best car you can find, or to tidy one that is almost there.

Good luck!

 

[larby]

Yeah, see this is the issue. I'm not sure I can justify spending 10k outright on even a 55 when I'm supposed to be saving for other things! It's easier to work on what I've got bit by bit. I guess to be fair it wouldn't have to be black on black, though it would be nice, but I don't want a dog and I'm really buying blind from over here.
Not to mention that if I buy another car it'd probably have to be 5 door due to us now having a daughter!

Shame this didn't turn out the way I hoped, or that I can't be happy with just having the 430!

James

 

[LTD]

Dare I say it but buy a Caterham and keep the 430 ?

 

[johnpidge]

James

I almost bought a 430 myself a few years ago - it was quite quick - now have 55AMG which is obviously a fair bit faster but not quantum leap - are you sure its been serviced properly (a few have mentioned box oil change/filter) could you do a bit of modifications headers chip it etc etc??

 

[buccal]

Good advice. Give it to olly and see what he can do with the 430.

 

[andy27168]

Hi,
Fit my AMG bits off of my old engine should give 25 hp more together with some Renntec goodies from olly you won,t be far from 55 power anyway

 

[larby]

Oh yeah, I don't doubt it's pretty quick, took it out for a good run yesterday as it happens! It's more that I have this thing about knowing there's a faster option and not wanting second best!
I was actually having a nose through other 4 door options from the merc shed and I was really suprised by the C32K, never realised it was as quick as it is! May well end up either keeping the CLK and tuning, or changing to a C32K to give the 4 doors I could really do with.

Andy, what AMG bits have you got? My only issue with that is that if my ECU isn't adaptive, I'd have to get it remapped just for a few hp, which would be a pretty expensive exercise!

Cheers and merry xmas everyone! (how sad am I on here at 8.10 on xmas!)

James

 

[DRBC43AMG]

Get to Olly or at least chat with him

 

[larby]

Yeah I plan to have a chat with him, need to order the bits for my gearbox oil change anyhoo.

I'm still a bit confused about the whole non adaptive ecu issue, it must have some flexibility or it wouldn't have lambda sensors surely? Even if it can't get that close, an aftermarket product manipulating the airflow signal could alter it enough to get it right and allow me to map it using a wideband?

James

 

[andy27168]

Yeah I plan to have a chat with him, need to order the bits for my gearbox oil change anyhoo.

I'm still a bit confused about the whole non adaptive ecu issue, it must have some flexibility or it wouldn't have lambda sensors surely? Even if it can't get that close, an aftermarket product manipulating the airflow signal could alter it enough to get it right and allow me to map it using a wideband?

James

As far as i,m aware there are no fundamental differences between the ECU's, personnally i would,nt let the ECU issue put you off of the conversion, just get the ECU remapped, thats what i,m planning to do i,m just getting an E55/CLK55 Mapp put on my 43 ECU, more than likely a Renntec remap from Olly
Basically i have a complete C43 engine including airbox, there was approx 25 bhp between the 43 and the 430 standard, just get my AMG specific parts fitted to your engine

 

[larby]

This is more like it. So I'm right in thinking that Olly could put any Renntec map on my ECU, therefore he could re-program to a 55 map just as easily as altering a 430 map? Problem solved surely?
Only remaining thing would be the TCU map, which no doubt Olly can alter while he's at it? Interesting info that I have much the same gearbox apparently, that's a good point! Is that why I have tip?
I can't imagine any modern car having a totally fixed map, they're all intuative to some extent, hence why they have narrowband?

James

 

[Pauljay]

Hi Larby,

All Tip-tronic gearboxes have adaptive learning, their ECUs (TCU and ECU) have set parameters to which they can adjust things. The engine ECU controls fuelling which is where you get the problems. The 430 ECU can only do so much in adjustments when fuelling a 55 motor which is why you will not get full power.

The ECU in a C43 is an AMG one meaning the range is greater because the engine has greater requirements. This ECU will recognise that more air and fuel is coming in, adjust timing, ignition, and will control the many little sub division messages sent to it. Mercedes electronics are very complicated.

Adaptive learning is the two computers talking to one another and making adjustments.

The TCU controls shift speed and torque limits for each gear. You can speed up its changes a little by getting a SPRINT booster. This device amplifies the signal the TCU recieves and changes the throttle position signal making small inputs larger (you may know already that our cars are fly by wire with no cables).

A 55 remap will not work on your car simply because the AMG engine takes more signals from sensors which the 430 doesn't have. In any case I don't believe in 'cutting and pasting' maps because every car is different. Generic maps will work, but they will not give you the best from your car!
It all depends on what you want from your car.

The thing about chassis coding is security. If you order a part from Mercedes they will always ask you for you chassis code or your reg number, then when that comes up on their screen they will order your part from your chassis number.

Your chassis number is given at the factory. From it Mercedes can see all the factory options for your car (even what stereo you have and if you still have it they can give you the radio code!)

This is why only a part from your car can be ordered, if it's not on your car they won't order it unless you have a chassis number!

ECUs and TCUs are chassis coded meaning they will only work in that particular car (not model). Once a car has left the factory after 50 starts of the engine they become hard wired to that vehicle (the code is burned into their chip)! This is why swapping computers won't work.

Lastly, if you were to get a stand alone ECU how much would that cost? Buying, fitting and then tuning.

If you tune your 430 right you will see some decent gains. It's cheaper. It won't be a 55 but it still will be quick.

The question to yourself is how much do you want to spend?

The cars maybe cheap, but parts are not. Just because it's a Mercedes people will bump up the price! This is why I respect modified/tuned high end cars, not only has the owner been creative, but it has cost an awful lot too.