Driving Licence revoked

[grober]

I would suggest this is redolent of the corrosive "live now pay later" mindset encouraged by credit card companies brainwashing people [ particularly the young] into a life of debt, meaning our entire economy now functions on it. When youngsters get into trouble its all too easy to blame them as feckless individuals but I would maintain their perspective of the real world has been willfully distorted by others for financial gain and this particular individual's erroneous thinking is just a manifestation of same. She's wrong of course- she's driving without a licence right NOW but its easy to see where that "its ok until I get the official letter" might be coming from.

 

[brucemillar]

Agree with Graeme here. There is the very real "domino effect" where the impact of our actions often far exceeds our contemplation or thinking at the time of the initial action.

 

[st13phil]

My view is that it's highly unlikely that notice has not been served on the young lady in question, so by deduction the revocation is active and she must confirm the situation with the DVLA to gain certainty. Under the circumstances, it is foolish in the extreme to be driving. However...

As noted in Driver15's post above, licence revocation under the Road Traffic (New Drivers) Act 1995 (see Section 3) does actually require that the licence holder be served notice of the revocation by the Secretary of State, i.e. by the DVLA, and not the sentencing Court, and the revocation "shall have effect from a date specified in the notice of revocation which may not be earlier than the date of service of that notice".

Whether she has physically received notice or not is largely - but not totally - irrelevant as service will be assumed to have occurred in line with the Interpretation Act if the DVLA have a record that it was sent.

 

[brucemillar]

My view is that it's highly unlikely that notice has not been served on the young lady in question, so by deduction the revocation is active and she must confirm the situation with the DVLA to gain certainty. Under the circumstances, it is foolish in the extreme to be driving. However...

As noted in Driver15's post above, licence revocation under the Road Traffic (New Drivers) Act 1995 (see Section 3) does actually require that the licence holder be served notice of the revocation by the Secretary of State, i.e. by the DVLA, and not the sentencing Court, and the revocation "shall have effect from a date specified in the notice of revocation which may not be earlier than the date of service of that notice".

Whether she has physically received notice or not is largely - but not totally - irrelevant as service will be assumed to have occurred in line with the Interpretation Act if the DVLA have a record that it was sent.

Phil. As I read it? Her license was revoked by the courts at the same time as the fine was levied etc. That being the case (and I may be wrong here) my understanding is, that the clock starts ticking at the point the sentence was handed down? Usually the magistrates and/or, the clerk of the court, will make a point of stating this in court to remove any confusion "you must not drive away from this court room".

Happy to be corrected here as it is always to good to know the correct procedure.

 

[CabrioDave]

Sadly, it's not just the younger driver who can take a "convenient" view on what is allowed.

I was busy getting some cash at the machine outside the Post Office, when a guy (probably in his 60s) parked up behind me, on a noisy Honda quad-bike.

A woman coming out of the Post Office saw him and called out, "Hello - what are you doing on that?", to which he replied, "Oh, well ... I'm on medication, so I'm not allowed to drive".

Is it me??

 

[CabrioDave]

For your daughter's safety, your own peace of mind, and so that the friend is clearer, it might be sensible to check the licence online, while the friend is with you.

What it shows at the DVLA (including any penalties or restrictions) can be checked here: https://www.gov.uk/view-driving-licence

The friend will need to input her driving licence number, her National Insurance number, and the postcode of her registered address. You'll all then be able to see the official position as held by the DVLA (and which the Police will be going by).

Hooe that helps.

 

[219]

OK, a legal question which I'll ask in a second.

Some background....... my youngest daughters best friend passed her test less than a year ago. Around New Year, she was pulled over by traffic police and charged with driving without insurance.

Apparently unknown to her, the monthly direct debit for her insurance was unpaid due to insufficient funds and her insurance was cancelled.

She was taken to court and received a £300 fine and 6 pts, was forced to renew her insurance to retrieve her impounded car and her licence was revoked due to a new driver collecting 6pts within the first 2 years of driving.

I was told this evening she is still driving.
Allegedly she can continue driving until she receives a written letter from DVLA confirming her licence has been revoked.

My question. Is she risking being caught for driving without a valid licence whilst waiting for the DVLA letter?
Personally I think she is on risky ground but I would appreciate your opinions. I'm uncertain if I have been told the whole story.

Just to reiterate, not a family member called Dave or Davina!

I've read about this ( insurance being cancelled ) happening a number of times and not convinced about the rights of it .

Certainly when I've looked at policy details in the past , the terms and conditions clearly outline the process for cancellation , both by the insured and by the insurer - in BOTH cases written notice has to be given .

In particular when an insurer is cancelling a customer's policy this is precisely so that they do not end up in the situation of unknowingly driving around whilst uninsured .

The daughter should carefully check the terms and conditions of her policy since it may transpire that ( if she was not given any notice of cancellation ) the company may have acted unlawfully and therefore her conviction should be overturned .

It is quite plainly wrong that insurers cancel cover without at the very least contacting the policyholder - if they did not even attempt to do this then the company is in the wrong .

 

[st13phil]

Phil. As I read it? Her license was revoked by the courts at the same time as the fine was levied etc. That being the case (and I may be wrong here) my understanding is, that the clock starts ticking at the point the sentence was handed down? Usually the magistrates and/or, the clerk of the court, will make a point of stating this in court to remove any confusion "you must not drive away from this court room".

Happy to be corrected here as it is always to good to know the correct procedure.

Like you Bruce, I'm happy to be corrected but as I understand it:

If you're disqualified from driving it means that you're disqualified from holding a driving licence and from driving for the period of disqualification. A Court may hand down a sentence of disqualification, and in that case it is effective immediately. Driving while disqualified is a very serious offence for which the punishment would be up to 6 months in prison and/or a fine up to £5,000, 6 penalty points and discretionary disqualification from driving (again!).

If your licence is revoked under the New Driver provisions it means that your full entitlement to drive has been removed. You are not disqualified, and it doesn't prevent you from immediately applying for a Provisional Licence, and taking your theory and practical driving tests. Once they're passed, your full entitlement to drive is restored. This is why someone who has had their licence revoked under the New Driver provisions but continues to drive could be charged and convicted for the offence of Driving otherwise than in accordance with a licence for which the punishment would be a fine up to £1000, 3-6 penalty points and discretionary disqualification from driving.

The subtlety is that a Court may hand down a sanction that results in revocation under the New Driver provisions, but the Court does not of itself make the revocation, that responsibility lies with the DVLA acting on behalf of the Secretary of State.

I think there's a general assumption that Revocation and Disqualification are one and the same which leads to much confusion around the New Driver provisions, but they are very different.

 

[st13phil]

The daughter should carefully check the terms and conditions of her policy since it may transpire that ( if she was not given any notice of cancellation ) the company may have acted unlawfully and therefore her conviction should be overturned .

It is quite plainly wrong that insurers cancel cover without at the very least contacting the policyholder - if they did not even attempt to do this then the company is in the wrong .

I completely agree Derek, notice of cancellation must be given by the insurer. In the case in question, one must question why the young lady apparently didn't receive the notice of cancellation nor a notice of Licence Revocation.

That two important and independent pieces of mail haven't been received would suggest either that the person doesn't live at the address the insurer and DVLA think they do, or that they are perhaps being "economical with the truth".

 

[sc3992]

Revocation of a driving licence has an immediate effect once 6 points are reached.

The licence remains revoked indefinitely and will not be reinstated until an application is made.

She should not be driving.......

 

[CabrioDave]

Revocation of a driving licence has an immediate effect once 6 points are reached.

The licence remains revoked indefinitely and will not be reinstated until an application is made.

She should not be driving.......

I don't think that's quite right. As soon as six points are awarded, the DVLA has the power, and has the duty to revoke the licence. When they revoke it, the licence is revoked.

There's no process of "application" to have the licence reinstated. That licence simply does not exist any more. The driver can get a new licence, at any point, by going through the test process again, as st13phil says.

 

[AMGeed]

Thanks for your comments guys. I shall be asking my daughter for more info on this as something is not adding up. She'll certainly be told not to travel in the car with her whilst the driver may be unlicenced.

She must have known her insurance was cancelled either by the company itself, or the bank telling her the DD was unpaid.

As usual, I expect I have only been told half the story, or its been changed in the version I have got
I'll get to the bottom if this soon enough

 

[ToeKnee]

I've heard stories from friends and other car forums where insurance has been cancelled for the slightest of reasons which is why I check very regularly with https://ownvehicle.askmid.com/ that all cars in my household show that they are insured. Have you checked yours recently??

 

[sc3992]

I don't think that's quite right. As soon as six points are awarded, the DVLA has the power, and has the duty to revoke the licence. When they revoke it, the licence is revoked. There's no process of "application" to have the licence reinstated. That licence simply does not exist any more. The driver can get a new licence, at any point, by going through the test process again, as st13phil says.

The DVLA must revoke the license when 6 or more points have been reached, they do not have the power to do anything else. Therefore when 6 or more points have been reached, technically it must be revoked by the DVLA but it's semantics really........

Once revoked, the licence still exists but has the status of being "revoked" which means it cannot be used. It can be reinstated on application with the status of "learner" but the licence does not cease to exist once an initial application for a licence is made, it merely changes its status making it not useable. This is to maintain the drivers driving record irrespective of what status the licence is.......

 

[brucemillar]

Well I'm getting lost in this now.

To answer the OP's question.

Does she have a valid license or not?

 

[PobodY]

The consensus seems to be: She still has a physical license, but we believe it is not valid.

 

[CabrioDave]

I think we're still at the starting point: the DVLA is required to revoke the licence, but have they yet done so?

I'm hoping AMGeed will find out (method above) and let us know.

 

[Dave.tam]

I'll ask at work tomorrow, but I'm pretty sure that the driver is banned instantly at court. I know it's semantics re banned/disqualified/revoked etc, but the jist of it is, you're sent to court as the total points for the offence would meet the totting up rule, so you can't just get a ticket. Then the court issues the penaulty, which for no insurance is normally a fine of £300 (used to be £200) and 6 penalty points on the licence, which if given to a driver with less than 2yrs experience, gets them an automatic and immediate ban. She would have been perfectly legal to drive to the court (if now insured), but would be reminded by the court that she cannot and must not drive home.

 

[Mrhanky]

Someone I know was caught speeding and him and his wife reported they could not tell who was driving at the time as they shared the journey.

Long story short he went to court and they took a dim view. He ended up with the points totalling 12 and got an instant ban there and then at court.

 

[Dave.tam]

Yeah the courts really do take a dim view when they suspect someone of trying to get one over on them. It's like the magistrate takes it personally.

I've heard similar stories of such ilk.