E class Triumphs

[Dieselman]

These reliability statistics are a bit of a joke and how on earth can anyone compare a very basic car that has no options, extra's etc to a car has electronic gadgets coming out of its ears?

Are they.?
Take MB C class and Lexus IS or S class and LS. I would have thought they were technically similar.
Or should we just ignore the ones in the top 30..

 

[hawk20]

If one uses the reliability sections of the survey they will see the Lexus IS is way ahead of the C class.
To clarify, Lexus do nothing for me but should we ignore their acclaimed reliability.

Well here is what the J D Power survey says of the Lexus: -
"The Lexus IS is second in class and third overall.

Owners reported very good interior build quality, loved the way the car drives and looks, and rated Lexus dealers as among the best.

There are chinks in its armour, though. Mechanical reliability was only average; a number of owners reported engine faults. Running costs were so-so, with relatively steep fuel bills."

Not that brilliant is it?

The point for most of us is that satisfaction is made up of many things including driving pleasure, comfort and looks -- not just reliability.

 

[st4]

The E class is a fantastic car, end of

 

[Dieselman]

And how does the MB fair.?
per your original post in this thread I had referenced the autoexpress survey, which grades the IS highly for reliability owners are almost as impressed by its reliability and build quality, and the Mercedes as only average.

Not that brilliant is it.?

I had said I was avoiding the 'satisfaction' sections of the survey.

 

[hawk20]

And how does the MB fair.?
per your original post in this thread I had referenced the autoexpress survey, which grades the IS highly for reliability owners are almost as impressed by its reliability and build quality, and the Mercedes as only average.

Not that brilliant is it.?

Run down Mercedes all you like if it gives you pleasure but to be 3rd overall and top exec in one survey and eighth overall and runner up by a whisker in the other survey looks pretty good to me.

Where was the BMW 5 series (was it 45th overall? And 54th the year before? )

 

[scumbag]

http://mbclub.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=55259&page=2

damn, I wanted to put that in here.

 

[Dieselman]

You seem to be taking this personally Hawk.
I'm not running down Mercedes at all, just pointing out what is said in the surveys that YOU posted up.

The reliability sections indicate that Mercedes have some work to do yet and I find that hard to ignore.
If you can read reliability into what is there in print then you are doing better than me.

<shrug>

 

[scumbag]

You seem to be taking this personally Hawk.
I'm not running down Mercedes at all, just pointing out what is said in the surveys that YOU posted up.

The reliability sections indicate that Mercedes have some work to do yet and I find that hard to ignore.
If you can read reliability into what is there in print then you are doing better than me.

<shrug>

thats a very "cyclists" type comment that is

what have you got against us car drivers?

 

[hawk20]

You seem to be taking this personally Hawk.
I'm not running down Mercedes at all, just pointing out what is said in the surveys that YOU posted up.

The reliability sections indicate that Mercedes have some work to do yet and I find that hard to ignore.
If you can read reliability into what is there in print then you are doing better than me.

<shrug>

Not at all. Merely noting the joy you seem to take in each sentence you can find that is not flattering to Mercedes.

Personally as an MB enthusiast I feel some joy at the greatly improved customer satisfaction ratings of the E class -a car I used to own and greatly admire.

 

[Dieselman]

Not at all. Merely noting the joy you seem to take in each sentence you can find that is not flattering to Mercedes.

Personally as an MB enthusiast I feel some joy at the greatly improved customer satisfaction ratings of the E class -a car I used to own and greatly admire.

You need to understand that stating fact isn't joy. Where have I shown any joy at Mercedes not being high in the reliability section.? Nana's maybe, big grins...err..nope..

Please don't try to twist my posts to suit your argument.

The original query was to ask a member why he thought this car was better than others when [Les Dennis voice] the survey said [/Les Dennis voice] otherwise..
It's foolish to ignore factual information, whether we like that or not.

 

[Donza]

Best saloon i car i have EVER driven to date is a BMW M5. Nothing compared to driving that beast for a year.

 

[Dieselman]

Best saloon i car i have EVER driven to date is a BMW M5. Nothing compared to driving that beast for a year.

Your Barred..

 

[hawk20]

Best saloon i car i have EVER driven to date is a BMW M5. Nothing compared to driving that beast for a year.

I had an old Riley 1.5 at one time and that was a real joy at the time. But the S class I had for a bit over 18 months and 30k miles gave me what I shall probably always look back on as the best drives of my life. Awesome car. Every time I got in it I felt excited just at the prospect of driving it. Magical.

 

[verytalldave]

I suppose my point about car surveys can be summed up like this.
Imagine there is this car. Its got excellent reliability. Performance to spare, in fact everything including an excellent dealer network. Its affordable and reasonably economical. In fact its the runaway winner in the survey by a mile.
The only fly in the ointment is that it is as ugly as sin and you you hate its looks.
Then again, there is this other car. It is only average on all counts.
However, you love its looks. Its design is to die for and is a stunner.

So which one do you buy?

Thats my point.

Surveys can only ever tell you part of the story. Most people buy a certain car primarily because they love its looks. Providing its not a complete dog in other respects, then thats the car they will buy.

And long may that continue.

A car is a heart. not a brain purchase.

 

[timskemp]

Best saloon i car i have EVER driven to date is a BMW M5. Nothing compared to driving that beast for a year.

What's interesting about that statement is that in a way I'd agree, not driven the current V10 M5 but have the previous V8. And yet I chose the E (like you did) over a 5 for my everyday, economical, cheap to run daily driver.

The M5 is very unlike a standard 5 series, for a start there's no smooth auto and no smooth ride, but the feel, enjoyment and handling are amazing when you're driving it hard, and therein lies the rub.

99% of the time spend in a car is not spent throwing it around bends with smoke pouring from the rear tyres. Journey times in the UK have very little to do with feel, handling and power. Comfort, style, image and ergonomics matter more, and the for most people the E class beats the 5 series on all four counts, the C beats the 3 series on all four counts and the S beats the 7 on all four counts.

That Mercedes is now beating BMW on reliability and customer experience speaks volumes. When I went looking for a car with £400/mth and an A class to trade in my two nearest BMW dealers showed no interest, my two nearest Mercedes dealers where up there with the follow up calls, test drives, moving cars between showrooms for me etc, as were my local Volvo dealer. BMW did not get my business.

 

[Uberwagon]

That Mercedes is now beating BMW on reliability and customer experience speaks volumes. When I went looking for a car with £400/mth and an A class to trade in my two nearest BMW dealers showed no interest, my two nearest Mercedes dealers where up there with the follow up calls, test drives, moving cars between showrooms for me etc, as were my local Volvo dealer. BMW did not get my business.

I don't think this says how well Mercedes have done to getting up near the top of the tree, I think it simply shows how far it fell from what was once an over engineered producer of incredibly reliable cars.

I love the new models out there, but with regards to build quality they haven't got back to where they once were imo.

As for the E39 M5, my friends 2000 model year one is looking decidedly more tired and needs far more maintenance than my 17 year old 130,000 mile W124. Although the M5 is I agree one of the best cars produced in the last 20 years.

Dave!

 

[Mr E]

It's foolish to ignore factual information, whether we like that or not.

And therein lies the industry's major problem with this survey - it's qualitative in it's approach.

The survey population is asked for their "opinion" on a rating scale and there is little or no qualification to that. To give an example, Mrs E thought her previous car was "unreliable" and would have scored it as such. It never let her down, but it had annoying little niggles such as the remote locking not working from as far away as she would like.

Someone else may take a broader definition of "reliable" - let's take dependable. My previous car let me down once and went in to have the turbo replaced. Had a hire car for three days. Doesn't make it unreliable in my book (one event in four years) but others I know kept harping on about that event, even saying "I couldn't rely on it after that".

In my line of work I've been privy to the workings of this and and manufacturer's own reliability surveys. The manufacturer's employ independent survey companies who build a statistically valid population. Quite often it's done as a face-to-face interview, with questions very carefully crafted so as not to lead an interviewee in one way or another. They correlate this against warranty and repair info that comes in from the dealer network.

The JDP survey is not ignored, but is fairly low down in the scheme of things. It's of interest because for a few weeks it gets bandied around the motoring media - OEMs check to see if this has any impact on sales, etc, and may then decide to investigate further. If the results are good - great, free publicity and lots of plated plastic to stick up in dealers and HQ. In reality, having worked with at least 5 major european manufacturers over the years (and a couple of Japanese ones too) the survey has minimal impact on sales numbers, which is what really matters at the end of the day.

 

[Dieselman]

And therein lies the industry's major problem with this survey - it's qualitative in it's approach.

The survey population is asked for their "opinion" on a rating scale and there is little or no qualification to that. To give an example, Mrs E thought her previous car was "unreliable" and would have scored it as such. It never let her down, but it had annoying little niggles such as the remote locking not working from as far away as she would like.

The surveys I have seen ask targeted questions about how many faults and what part of the car they were on.
They are not asked for opinion on the reliability questions, but are on the 'soft' aspect questions, which as I will say again, is why I excluded them from my comments.
That takes away the subjectiveness of the survey and keeps them objective.

Even if the survey was as simple as people saying their car was either reliable or not, and they don't, then why would Lexus drivers grade their car highly and Mercedes drivers grade their car lower.
Surely there would be a broad enough cross section of people filling in the survey to give a balanced report for each manufacturer.

If a survey asks 'How many times has your car had to go to be repaired in the last 12 months?' I think most people would be able to answer that question accurately.
They then go on to ask which part of the car required repair...blah, blah, blah..
These are NOT opinion questions, they seek factual answers.

 

[hawk20]

If a survey asks 'How many times has your car had to go to be repaired in the last 12 months?' I think most people would be able to answer that question accurately.
They then go on to ask which part of the car required repair...blah, blah, blah..
These are NOT opinion questions, they seek factual answers.

But JD Power and Driver Power ask loads of impressionistic questions and few if any purely factual questions.

Even factual questions don't get us the answer we may really want. 'How many times did you require a repair?' sounds like a useful question but if the repair was quick and simple, and the dealer helpful, that is a totally different matter from a case where the repair was long and complex and involved a long wait for spares, with an unhelpful dealer. That is why 'customer satisfaction' is what they seek to measure in many surveys like JDP.

Do we want reliable for two to three years? Or reliable for 10 or 15 or more? This is inevitably a very complex subject and one where different people want different things.

 

[Dieselman]

But JD Power and Driver Power ask loads of impressionistic questions and few if any purely factual questions.

Even factual questions don't get us the answer we may really want. 'How many times did you require a repair?' sounds like a useful question but if the repair was quick and simple, and the dealer helpful, that is a totally different matter from a case where the repair was long and complex and involved a long wait for spares, with an unhelpful dealer.

Why not try sticking to the Autoexpress reliability survey you originally started this thread with.

They ask very specific questions about how many visits, what for, which part of the car, how many attempts to fix it, how long it took, etc.

I agree the surveys may well not be giving the answer you want, but that doen't stop them being valid.