EV's and battery damage & other woes means I wont buy one

[MikeInWimbledon]

Did you read the recent Autocar article I linked to?





It also contained some interesting (to me, anyway) technical info. The new sites are relatively simple/cheap to set up as the hydrogen pumps are supplied by 40' compressed-gas tanker trailers kept on site and replaced as necessary from a central depot. So there's less infrastructure to install, and no transferring of gas deliveries to on-site storage.

As mentioned widespread use of hydrogen IS coming - there's simply no other practical option for the majority of commercial vehicle traffic. Don't be a "hydrogen hater" - embrace the change

I’m no hydrogen hater, I’ve been following hydrogen for more than a decade, which is partly why I drove the Mirai 7 or 8 years ago.

My point was that, after all this time, there are still only a dozen pumps in the UK and, as far as I’m aware, they’re mainly in private or academic hands, and not for public use.

When the police laughed at the Mirai in 2015, as a replacement for the BMW 5, the prices being quoted were £80k. For fleet purchase

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

James May has had two (a gen 1 and a gen2)



Not particularly up to date but

Toyota Mirai - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You’re proud of 11,000 units sold over an eight year period? 1500 a year?

Does that sound like a game changer?

How do they get charged in a country that big? Where folks often drive 50 miles each way to go to a restaurant or movie theatre?

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

As I'm sure you know Toyota released a new model in 2020, so it's odd that you refer to the car in the past tense?

I know about the two models of the Mirai.

As I said earlier, there are 100 Mirai registered for actual use on UK roads:

64 of the model 1 and
34 of the 2020 model 2.

 

[Will]

Honest question - why such slow uptake on Hydrogen?

Those Toyotas have been out for 10 years now and only sold 21k units worldwide?

EV and PHEVs sell in the millions?

Understand the chicken and egg thing, but in terms of supply and demand - if people wanted hydrogen cars they’d be selling more and building more infrastructure.

Mike makes some fair points about Police etc - if they can’t shift them they can’t shift them, simple really.

Not against the technology or for trying new things but it doesn’t seem to be taking off, does it?

 

[BTB 500]

I’m no hydrogen hater, I’ve been following hydrogen for more than a decade, which is partly why I drove the Mirai 7 or 8 years ago.

My point was that, after all this time, there are still only a dozen pumps in the UK and, as far as I’m aware, they’re mainly in private or academic hands, and not for public use.

When the police laughed at the Mirai in 2015, as a replacement for the BMW 5, the prices being quoted were £80k. For fleet purchase

We've already talked about the infrastructure.

The police only adopt a tiny minority of the cars they evaluate - whether petrol, diesel, hybrid, EV, or fuel cell. Can't comment on the fleet price they were apparently offered on the Mirai, but that wasn't the normal retail price AFAIK.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

We've already talked about the infrastructure.

The police only adopt a tiny minority of the cars they evaluate - whether petrol, diesel, hybrid, EV, or fuel cell. Can't comment on the fleet price they were apparently offered on the Mirai, but that wasn't the normal retail price AFAIK.

For sure, likewise I’m only quoting numbers I heard “back in the day.”

“Logically” any EV “ought” to be a lot cheaper by now.

 

[BTB 500]

You’re proud of 11,000 units sold over an eight year period? 1500 a year?

Does that sound like a game changer?

How do they get charged in a country that big? Where folks often drive 50 miles each way to go to a restaurant or movie theatre?

No idea how many have sold by year. As a man with statistics knowledge you should appreciate that 11000 in 8 years and 1500 a year aren't necessarily the same thing

No idea about infrastructure in other countries, sorry.

 

[BTB 500]

Honest question - why such slow uptake on Hydrogen?

Those Toyotas have been out for 10 years now and only sold 21k units worldwide?

EV and PHEVs sell in the millions?

Understand the chicken and egg thing, but in terms of supply and demand - if people wanted hydrogen cars they’d be selling more and building more infrastructure.

Mike makes some fair points about Police etc - if they can’t shift them they can’t shift them, simple really.

Not against the technology or for trying new things but it doesn’t seem to be taking off, does it?

If there's a hydrogen filling point reasonably handy for you then getting 400 miles of range from a 5 minute fill (with no tailpipe emissions other than some water vapour) could be an attractive option for many people. If there isn't then nobody in their right mind would buy one, any more than you'd buy a BEV if you had nowhere to charge it.

If hydrogen takes off in a big way for larger/heavier vehicles such as trucks / vans /coaches / etc. (as seems very likely, and as planned for by the UK government) then there will have to be a supply network to support that ... which will also benefit car users. That's presumably what Toyota/Hyundai/BMW/Renault (and others, perhaps) are banking on.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

If there's a hydrogen filling point reasonably handy for you then getting 400 miles of range from a 5 minute fill (with no tailpipe emissions other than some water vapour) could be an attractive option for many people. If there isn't then nobody in their right mind would buy one, any more than you'd buy a BEV if you had nowhere to charge it.

If hydrogen takes off in a big way for larger/heavier vehicles such as trucks / vans /coaches / etc. (as seems very likely, and as planned for by the UK government) then there will have to be a supply network to support that ... which will also benefit car users. That's presumably what Toyota/Hyundai/BMW/Renault (and others, perhaps) are banking on.

Agreed.

Just pointing out that EV sceptics are worried that we've only got 53,000 Commercial EV charging points in the UK, plus electricity in most driveways, lamp-posts, formal car parks, offices, and commercial premises.

If EV sceptics are frightened of that not being enough, aren't they going to be worried about whether you can set up, from scratch, enough hydrogen service pumps all over the UK ?

 

[markjay]

Honest question - why such slow uptake on Hydrogen?

Those Toyotas have been out for 10 years now and only sold 21k units worldwide?

EV and PHEVs sell in the millions?

Understand the chicken and egg thing, but in terms of supply and demand - if people wanted hydrogen cars they’d be selling more and building more infrastructure.

Mike makes some fair points about Police etc - if they can’t shift them they can’t shift them, simple really.

Not against the technology or for trying new things but it doesn’t seem to be taking off, does it?

I think that it's easier to install a new EV charger, than a Hydrogen refuelling station. Plus, anyone who has off-street parking can charge an EV at home. Add to this the fact that small commercial EVs were common for decades in factories and airports etc, and EVs had a headstart over Hydrogen fuel cell. It's not necessarily an indication that one technology is superior to the other, it's just the result of a set of circumstances.

 

[MikeInWimbledon]

No idea how many have sold by year. As a man with statistics knowledge you should appreciate that 11000 in 8 years and 1500 a year aren't necessarily the same thing

For sure, I'm just pointing out that shifting just over a hundred Mirai a month isn't a lot in a country as big as the USA.

 

[BTB 500]

Agreed.

Just pointing out that EV sceptics are worried that we've only got 53,000 Commercial EV charging points in the UK, plus electricity in most driveways, lamp-posts, formal car parks, offices, and commercial premises.

If EV sceptics are frightened of that not being enough, aren't they going to be worried about whether you can set up, from scratch, enough hydrogen service pumps all over the UK ?

Possibly, but the longer range of hydrogen fuelled vehicles could make it less of an issue.

Pure BEV for HGVs etc. just doesn't work with current battery technology, except in some specific use cases (e.g. relatively short runs between fixed bases). So if you are committed to zero emissions then at the moment hydrogen is the only solution.

As an aside Toyota made significant improvements to the fuel cell in the Mirai between gen 1 and gen 2 (smaller, lighter, cheaper, more powerful and more efficient) giving the car 30% more range on the same tank size. That's just one manufacturer in a non-competitive (at the moment) market, so there may well be further gains to be had. As mentioned BMW are using Toyota's gen 2 fuel cell in their hydrogen iX5.

James May's video about his gen 2 is worth watching out of general interest if nothing else:

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[BTB 500]

I think that it's easier to install a new EV charger, than a Hydrogen refuelling station. Plus, anyone who has off-street parking can charge an EV at home. Add to this the fact that small commercial EVs were common for decades in factories and airports etc, and EVs had a headstart over Hydrogen fuel cell. It's not necessarily an indication that one technology is superior to the other, it's just the result of a set of circumstances.

It depends a bit on how powerful you need the charger to be, but yes.

As an aside it's commonplace for commercial and private properties that aren't on mains gas to have on-site LPG tanks. So I'd guess that if you wanted to (and could afford it) you could have a hydrogen tank at home, filled up by Air Products (or whoever) as necessary?

 

[markjay]

It depends a bit on how powerful you need the charger to be, but yes.

As an aside it's commonplace for commercial and private properties that aren't on mains gas to have on-site LPG tanks. So I'd guess that if you wanted to (and could afford it) you could have a hydrogen tank at home, filled up by Air Products (or whoever) as necessary?

Sure, I didn't say it was impossible, just that it was easier to install an EV charging point on the wall next to your drive, not to mention that you could even charge with a granny cable. As I said, electricity had a head start.

 

[ALFAitalia]

If there's a hydrogen filling point reasonably handy for you then getting 400 miles of range from a 5 minute fill (with no tailpipe emissions other than some water vapour) and NOX.

Fixed that for your.....it's a myth that hydrogen is zero emission....and of course NOX is one of the main reason big cities have ULEZ zones.

Hydrogen internal combustion engine vehicle - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Hydrogen Hype in the Air - Clean Energy Group

Clean Energy Group raises concerns about harmful NOx emissions from new industry plans to burn hydrogen in fossil fuel power plants; calls for pause in permitting proposals until independent public health investigations are conducted -- particularly to study potentially dangerous air pollution...

www.cleanegroup.org

 

[grober]

On a practical note HYGROGEN Molecules are the smallest known! This imposes very high demands when engineering its storage distribution and transportation. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0360319923020967

 

[BTB 500]

Fixed that for your.....it's a myth that hydrogen is zero emission....and of course NOX is one of the main reason big cities have ULEZ zones.

Sorry if I wasn't clear - I was talking about fuel cell vehicles ... the only roadgoing type that currently use hydrogen. If hydrogen combustion engines ever went into production then yes the raw exhaust from those would contain small amounts of NOx, although JCB claimed this could be reduced to unmeasurable levels (effectively zero) if required.

 

[MeQ]

With all the hate for EVs I’m considering getting a cl63 to even things out

 

[BTB 500]

Don't know the current status but Vauxhall committed to a hydrogen fuel cell Vivaro van, giving an 1100 kg payload and a 249 mile range from a 3 minute fill:

2023 Vauxhall Vivaro-e Hydrogen confirmed for UK sale | Autocar

New FCEV variant of van will go on sale in UK in 2023 with three-minute refuelling and 1100kg payload

www.autocar.co.uk

 

[BTB 500]

Again I don't know the latest status but it seems Land Rover are also working on fuel cell vehicles:

FCEVs, which generate electricity from hydrogen to power an electric motor, are complimentary to battery electric vehicles (BEVs) on the journey to net zero vehicle emissions. Hydrogen-powered FCEVs provide high energy density and rapid refuelling, and minimal loss of range in low temperatures, making the technology ideal for larger, longer-range vehicles, or those operated in hot or cold environments.

Hydrogen FCEVs forecast to top 10 million by 2030 with 10,000 refuelling stations worldwide

JAGUAR LAND ROVER TO DEVELOP HYDROGEN-POWERED DEFENDER FUEL CELL PROTOTYPE | JLR Media Newsroom

media.jaguarlandrover.com