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How best to get someones attention...

ROFL.:crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy:

Attributes permanently missing from a good proportion of the human race and intermittently missing from the remainder.

Well then, they can queue like muppets for 20mins in a busy lane, and the aware, can drive up the emptly lane an merge in safely somewhere close to the merge in point:cool:
 
and the MSM which you slate.

You're based in Scotland so I assume you've driven in either Glasgow, Edinburgh and Aberdeen or 2 or all of them. You'll find there are bus lanes and car drivers aren't allowed to use them, so they lie mostly empty apart from the odd bus. What do you think would happen if there were no buses and these lanes could be used for cars, the answer is there would be less congestion as more traffic could be carried per unit of road space.

I was taking the micky regarding MSM and push pull crash. Junior training.

Yes there are bus lanes, but 95% of drivers are completely unaware of the time restrictions on them and i use them freely as there always empty, were allowed to, and don't cause me any issues or congession as i use the side roads.
 
I was taking the micky regarding MSM and push pull crash. Junior training.

Yes there are bus lanes, but 95% of drivers are completely unaware of the time restrictions on them and i use them freely as there always empty, were allowed to, and don't cause me any issues or congession as i use the side roads.

Aye, I'll give you that re the time restrictions. They can be used all sunday in Edinburgh (where I was anyway) and yet people just queue in the normal lane but the bus lane can be used.

However my main gripe was the bus lanes painted red which cannot be used by cars ever, uptowards Maryhill in Glasgow. Must cause more congestion.

Try travelling nearer to the merge in, you'll manage it fine and will save you time, + its allowed.
 
Depends on my mood, two lanes mean exactly that, 2 lanes, so sometimes I use the other one and merge in later, other times I shall sit in the other lane and poodle along slowly. If every car let one car in then in theory it should work, and does when it works properly. People change their attitude sometimes when behind the wheel of their car. I know if I am walking around town and two people go for a door at the same time, usually you are polite and let them through or vice versa, but as soon as someone is in a car, it's all me me me!

Why do people who are in one lane believe they have more right to the road than the other road users in the other lane? Just because they have been in that lane for a few more minutes or that is the lane that does nothave the arrows to say move over?
 
If a three lane motorway gets reduced to one lane, how does merging (BARGING) in at the last minute reduce holdups? Only a certain number of vehicles can drive in one lane so if more vehicles as approaching the restriction than the one lane can handle, there is bound to be holdups for those who are yet to reach the restriction.Therefore each inconsiderate driver who barges in at the last minute delays the good driver even more. The IAM does not recommend merging in at the last minute, but to merge in when it can be done at no inconvenience to other drivers.
 
If a three lane motorway gets reduced to one lane, how does merging (BARGING) in at the last minute reduce holdups? Only a certain number of vehicles can drive in one lane so if more vehicles as approaching the restriction than the one lane can handle, there is bound to be holdups for those who are yet to reach the restriction.Therefore each inconsiderate driver who barges in at the last minute delays the good driver even more. The IAM does not recommend merging in at the last minute, but to merge in when it can be done at no inconvenience to other drivers.

Well said

my point exactly, but you may find you are banging your head against the tarmac here!

It's not about having a 'right' but if you arrive at something first then out of respect and manners you allow that person first.

Anyway the white line dividers on motorways are effectively giveway markers too. If someone indicates to move into the lane i am travelling in. The indication is a notification to other roads users that is their next intended manoeuvre, but have to 'giveway' to vehicles in that lane until it is safe to do so not to cause other vehicles to swerve or brake. So if someone travels down the lane being closed, they have to wait for drivers in that lane to give them the space. They can't demand it or expect to be given a space.

Many bus lanes in Ediburgh are time restricted to rush hour only, except for a few lanes, the A71 being one, but only until 18.30
 
Anyway the white line dividers on motorways are effectively giveway markers too. If someone indicates to move into the lane i am travelling in. The indication is a notification to other roads users that is their next intended manoeuvre, but have to 'giveway' to vehicles in that lane until it is safe to do so not to cause other vehicles to swerve or brake. So if someone travels down the lane being closed, they have to wait for drivers in that lane to give them the space. They can't demand it or expect to be given a space.

And there lies the problem. People in the lane that is the continuous lane won't let the ones in the closing lane in so a bottleneck forms. There is nothing wrong with merging in turn if done properly.

What the highways agency should do it do divert both lanes into a centre area so neither has perceived priority, thus making both parties give way and form the zip.
 
Anyway the white line dividers on motorways are effectively giveway markers too. If someone indicates to move into the lane i am travelling in. The indication is a notification to other roads users that is their next intended manoeuvre, but have to 'giveway' to vehicles in that lane until it is safe to do so not to cause other vehicles to swerve or brake. So if someone travels down the lane being closed, they have to wait for drivers in that lane to give them the space. They can't demand it or expect to be given a space.

Perhaps we can all agree that someone speeding past you and barging in at the last moment is annoying. (It's often Range Rover drivers who do this, in my limited experience.) This is not what the Highway Code calls 'merging in turn'.

As I explained before, I don't speed past or barge in; I wait for a gap to appear, signal and merge safely. It's just that I tend to do this later than some other drivers. Would you not agree that this is correct, efficient and polite?

Oops! I think we may have hijacked the original thread topic. :D
 
(It's often Range Rover drivers who do this, in my limited experience.)

Range Rover drivers should be given a special dispensation to jump queues.

It's not fair that they should be on the road too long as they're increasing the likelihood of not making it due to a breakdown.

Have pity.
 
If you go into the post office and see a queue of slowly moving folk waiting to be served, would you walk to the front of the queue because you are walking faster than they are? No, they were there before you so you wait behind them.

But if I was in the Post Office at the back of a queue and another window opened and nobody from my queue moved across (I am always careful not to rush across in these situations so as not to be seen to be queue jumping) I would move over to the queueless window. That is what the unused lane approaching roadworks is - it is a shorter queue to access the same resource.

At the point of the cones there is a limited resource available to drivers of both lanes - namely the single lane through the roadworks. However, if the Highways agency have supplied two lanes in which to queue to access this limited resource (which does NOT belong to the inside lane even though clearly many drivers in that lane think it does) then I will always choose the shortest queue.

As I have said, scientific studies have already established the correct mechanism for queuing in these situations. Therefore, I can only assume that those so vehemently arguing against two-lane queuing also reject other scientifically derived guidance and thus smoke profusely because it clears the lungs, live under high tension electricity cables because it envigorates the soul and only eat fried food because fat-lined arteries make your heart work harder and that is exactly what exercise does, really.
 
The one quotation from the Vanderbilt book in the link provided is , interestingly

"the weaving, honking speedster arrives at his (almost always his) destination only a few minutes ahead of the driver who maintains an even rate of speed and stays in one lane"
 
The one quotation from the Vanderbilt book in the link provided is , interestingly

"the weaving, honking speedster arrives at his (almost always his) destination only a few minutes ahead of the driver who maintains an even rate of speed and stays in one lane"

Yes, agreed. But the careful, moderated driver who passes 3/4 mile of mindless sheep sitting in the inside lane as he approaches roadworks usually arrives at his destination at least 15 to 20 minutes earlier. That's why I do it.
AND: If you read the book, as I have, you will see an entire chapter entitled "Why I drive down the outside lane - and why you should, too."
 
But if I was in the Post Office at the back of a queue and another window opened and nobody from my queue moved across (I am always careful not to rush across in these situations so as not to be seen to be queue jumping) I would move over to the queueless window. That is what the unused lane approaching roadworks is - it is a shorter queue to access the same resource.

Your example equates to a single lane branching out to two lanes, which is the opposite of what is under discussion. You should have said what you would do if there were two windows open with even length queues and one window suddenly closed.

At the point of the cones there is a limited resource available to drivers of both lanes - namely the single lane through the roadworks. However, if the Highways agency have supplied two lanes in which to queue to access this limited resource (which does NOT belong to the inside lane even though clearly many drivers in that lane think it does) then I will always choose the shortest queue.

As I have said, scientific studies have already established the correct mechanism for queuing in these situations. Therefore, I can only assume that those so vehemently arguing against two-lane queuing also reject other scientifically derived guidance and thus smoke profusely because it clears the lungs, live under high tension electricity cables because it envigorates the soul and only eat fried food because fat-lined arteries make your heart work harder and that is exactly what exercise does, really.

Where are these scientific studies to be found? I am very interested in improving my driving and education.
 
Your example equates to a single lane branching out to two lanes, which is the opposite of what is under discussion. You should have said what you would do if there were two windows open with even length queues and one window suddenly closed.

As I said, the inside (or open) lane does not belong to either one lane or the other.

I find it amusing that those who "patiently" sit in the inside lane and quote their reasons for doing so as being "politeness" then, when they get to the front of the queue, are so unwilling to share with drivers from the outside lane a resource that clearly must serve both lanes. Where is the "politeness" and the "patience" then?
 
As I said, the inside (or open) lane does not belong to either one lane or the other.

I find it amusing that those who "patiently" sit in the inside lane and quote their reasons for doing so as being "politeness" then, when they get to the front of the queue, are so unwilling to share with drivers from the outside lane a resource that clearly must serve both lanes. Where is the "politeness" and the "patience" then?

As in any queueing situation, whether it is in a Post Office, bus stop or a approaching a single lane for traffic the fair polite system is FIRST COME FIRST SERVED. Not I'll go up the side of the queue and just barge in front of those who were here before me. Such behaviour does not increase the number of vehicles able to pass through the restriction, it just offers the ignorant selfish driver a chance to gain an unfair advantage over decent respectful drivers.

Remember FIRST COME FIRST SERVED.
 
Yes, agreed. But the careful, moderated driver who passes 3/4 mile of mindless sheep sitting in the inside lane as he approaches roadworks usually arrives at his destination at least 15 to 20 minutes earlier. That's why I do it.
AND: If you read the book, as I have, you will see an entire chapter entitled "Why I drive down the outside lane - and why you should, too."

So you are calling the patient respectful drivers sheep?

I would not call a driver who drives past a queue they know the need to eventually move into careful and moderated. discourteous and ignorant of fellow road users.

So when the M1 had all the roadworks at Luton, and these could be as long as 3 miles. You would drive down the lane that was going to eventually close. If everyone thought 'feck it' there jumping the queue and all decided to jump into this lane that would cause huge delays. (forget that would leave the other lanes empty)
 
Remember FIRST COME FIRST SERVED.

Unless those who come first are too stupid to spot which lane they should use: the shortest one.

Look. I am not against people queuing up on the inside lane. In fact, I thoroughly approve of this practice. It makes my journey time into roadworks much shorter. Indeed, I would hate it if those who queue in the inside lane actually started to engage their brains and follow the advice of the Highways Agency and the Highway code. After all, they clearly feel some devine-given superior understanding of the dynamics of the situation that eclipses the awareness of the rest of us.
 
So you are calling the patient respectful drivers sheep?

I would not call a driver who drives past a queue they know the need to eventually move into careful and moderated. discourteous and ignorant of fellow road users.

So when the M1 had all the roadworks at Luton, and these could be as long as 3 miles. You would drive down the lane that was going to eventually close. If everyone thought 'feck it' there jumping the queue and all decided to jump into this lane that would cause huge delays. (forget that would leave the other lanes empty)

Have you now read the scientific studies to which I have referred? Have you interpreted their results and reached a different result to that reached by the scientists who conducted them?
If not, then may I suggest that you are voicing opinions and not facts when you state that using all the lanes will "cause huge delays".
 
Look. I am not against people queuing up on the inside lane. In fact, I thoroughly approve of this practice. It makes my journey time into roadworks much shorter.

I think you should try driving in Malaysia.

Apart from their own cultural view of what white lines are for and the concept of indicators they can magic up bad traffic jams that just lock for hours. Now to be fair some of these are down things like flash floods and a high accident rate.

But a large proportion of their problems are down to lack of patience, inability to queue, and unwillingness to give way under any circumstances.

I've seen a four way junction with failed traffic lights lock up because nobody backs off and gives room.

Now the advantage you have is that most people are reasonably polite and passive on the road. So you quite happily parisitise that behaviour to your advantage. Fine. It works as long as most people are considerate and well behaved.

Once the proportion goes up then it descends into a free for all. Everybody suffers.
 

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