how can i tell if my radiator bottle has anti-freeze?

[grober]

I have a w203 kompressor mate, the radiator bottle is totally clear, so has no anti-freeze, when filling up with anti freeze, is there anything else i need to do to prevent air locks ? and where sorry can i find the data sheets with the MB approval spec number so to get the correct anti freeze?

many thanks

James

Click on the long underlined hypertext link in my last post #18
The normal antifreeze/water =50%/50% ratio should normally give you a coloured fluid in your radiator expansion bottle. This could be clear blue, yellow/orange, or green depending on the antifreeze manufacturer [ coloured for safety reasonsto prevent ingestion] . Clear fluid would indicate 100% water- at least in the expansion bottle

 

[219]

I used to always use Bluecol , but since you don't see it in the shops these days , I just use the Halfords stuff .

 

[nickcc101]

No Garage or Transport company I have worked for has ever used distilled water for filling radiators, probably due to the cost implications. If your car has ever had the coolant changed, or topped up during servicing, at a Dealer/Indie you can almost certainly be assured that tap water has been used.

 

[Sir Chumpalot]

Click on the long underlined hypertext link in my last post #18
The normal antifreeze/water =50%/50% ratio should normally give you a coloured fluid in your radiator expansion bottle. This could be clear blue, yellow/orange, or green depending on the antifreeze manufacturer [ coloured for safety reasonsto prevent ingestion] . Clear fluid would indicate 100% water- at least in the expansion bottle

Thanks grober, so i can choose any from that list as they meet 325 standards for all MB??

 

[Sir Chumpalot]

No Garage or Transport company I have worked for has ever used distilled water for filling radiators, probably due to the cost implications. If your car has ever had the coolant changed, or topped up during servicing, at a Dealer/Indie you can almost certainly be assured that tap water has been used.

Thankyou, so i am ok to use standard tap water to mix with the anti-freeze? also do they sell an antifreeze that is already diluted? save measuring out against eachother, or not ?

 

[Smiley]

It depends what the tap water is like where you live. If your kettle scales up then imagine the damage to the radiator core - I had to replace mine for that reason - distilled water is very cheap and a new radiator is not - your choice

 

[Will]

I would always used distilled water in cooling systems, having seen first hand the damage caused by furred up waterways, I would argue that the cost isn't signficant enough to use tapwater instead.

http://www.mbclub.co.uk/forums/917668-post1.html

A blocked radiator, heater core, thermostat, or the waterways in the engine block/head are not good news. Not saying that you're guaranteed to cause damage - but is it worth the risk?

 

[kth286]

Sir

your car is near the point in time when Merc changed to long life coolant (15 years).

you cannot put previous coolant into long life car.

So, the only proper way is to give full VIN to parts person and he will get the correct info from parts computer for your particular car; and therefore the correct coolant mix.

It is the only way.

Coolant is far more important than most people realise, especially for those people that keep their cars over the longhaul.

My original radiator is still on car at 175,000 miles.

 

[grober]

Thanks grober, so i can choose any from that list as they meet 325 standards for all MB??

Yep. They all meet MB 325.0 if that's what is recommended for your car.

Its quite a complex system found in newer MB's involving sachet of slow release Silica gell to boost corrosion inhibitors over time. Its all explained in this document. http://www.2phast.com/500e/techdocs/antifreeze_article.pdf

 

[Sorry Pete]

I was under the impression that MB antifreeze was originally a BASF formulation G 05 a "HOAT" Hybrid Organic Acid Technology coolant. Where G stands for Glysantin aka Ethylene Glycol and 05[ nitrite containing ] under MB spec 325.0 BASF This G05 formulation is probably made by several manufacturers under licence. Here's the list of approved antifreeze that meets 325.0 MB 325.0 - Anticorrosion/antifreeze agents (Specification 325.0) - Mercedes-Benz Specifications for Operating Fluids

Grober, is there anything MB related you don't know?

I would always used distilled water in cooling systems, having seen first hand the damage caused by furred up waterways, I would argue that the cost isn't signficant enough to use tapwater instead.

http://www.mbclub.co.uk/forums/917668-post1.html

A blocked radiator, heater core, thermostat, or the waterways in the engine block/head are not good news. Not saying that you're guaranteed to cause damage - but is it worth the risk?

Precisely, why risk it for the sake of pennies?

I have a w203 kompressor mate....
when filling up with anti freeze, is there anything else i need to do to prevent air locks ? .....

I had no great problems doing it myself: pre-mix the antifreeze / distilled water, and pour very slowly and steadily into the expansion tank after draining the radiator and engine block of the old coolant.

Turn on the heaters to full output, and run the engine up to temperature. Check and top-up the coolant level in the expansion tank taking care to release pressure in the tank before taking the cap off completely. You'll want to wrap your hand and cap in a towel and slowly unscrew the cap. You don't want pressurised hot coolant and steam in your face. I believe I had minor air pockets in the heater matrix, as I could hear gurgling noises with the heater on, but these subsided after around 20 miles, and again I topped-up with coolant to the line indicated on the expansion tank.

 

[jefrs]

Distilled water is actually highly corrosive and can eat through stainless steel. Boiled water is the stuff to use. Boiling water knocks the semi-permanent hardness out of it, this is what furs up the plumbing, and forms the deposit in the kettle.

 

[Bellow]

Distilled water is actually highly corrosive and can eat through stainless steel. Boiled water is the stuff to use. Boiling water knocks the semi-permanent hardness out of it, this is what furs up the plumbing, and forms the deposit in the kettle.

Any in a position to comment on the above? Damn near bought some distilled water today!!

In the pre-mixed antifreeze solutions on sale, what 'quality' of water is used?

Looks as though it will be Comma XStream G48 Concentrate I will be using (G40 - no MB spec, G30 - MB325.3 = Commercial vehicle and industrial engines), and my first thought re water to mix it with given quoted post was to boil up some tap water. But the tap water here (NE Scotland) is straight off the hills, aka 'well water'. It's corrosive as hell to the copper plumbing (makes it brittle), and turns human hair green! Should I use this as a coolant mix?

Help!!!....

 

[grober]

Most of the underlying statigraphy of the North East of Scotland consists of acidic rocks with a couple of outcrops from basic intrusions. Couple this to native soil types that are predominantly acid in nature-- think peat bog once removed and water "off the hill" will likely be acidic in nature= a low pH compared to treated tap water.
Extensive testing has shown that a coolant pH below 8.3 pH is not acceptable for use in engines due to its corrosive nature and antifreeze additives are designed to keep the pH high . According to some sources the correct pH value should be maintained between 9.5 - 10.0 pH. Below 9.0 pH it is advisable to flush the cooling system and refill with a new coolant solution. Under these circumstances using hill water is going to go some way in negating the antifreeze alkylating additives. Best bet would be to use distilled, bottled or treated tap water. If you were to take a sample into your local pharmacist or water authority lab they would measure your hill water pH for you if you were concerned?

 

[nickcc101]

Any in a position to comment on the above? Damn near bought some distilled water today!!

In the pre-mixed antifreeze solutions on sale, what 'quality' of water is used?

Looks as though it will be Comma XStream G48 Concentrate I will be using (G40 - no MB spec, G30 - MB325.3 = Commercial vehicle and industrial engines), and my first thought re water to mix it with given quoted post was to boil up some tap water. But the tap water here (NE Scotland) is straight off the hills, aka 'well water'. It's corrosive as hell to the copper plumbing (makes it brittle), and turns human hair green! Should I use this as a coolant mix?

Help!!!....

You need a 50% mix and it should state this on the pre-mixed container. Would boiling the tap water before you use it reduce the impurities especially if you use a water filter first ( as previously suggested by SP!KE).

 

[tagnut]

Distilled water is actually highly corrosive and can eat through stainless steel.

Not quite right. Distilled water is theoretically PH7.0 which is completely neutral. As Grober has indicated the coolant mixture in your car should be between PH 9.5 and 10. As coolant breaks down over time it degrades into corrosive acids. It is this that causes the corrosion rather than the distilled water.

Coolant should normally be changed every two years but depending on climatic conditions and engine type may be degraded faster than this. Coolant PH should be checked at every service and flushed if the PH is below 9.0.

Hope this helps

Should also note that only distilled water is guaranteed to leave no deposits in you radiator system. Boiling water will reduce levels of lime and other deposits but not remove them completely.

 

[Bellow]

Grober and Tagnut:

I found some Ph strips and did some sampling. The strips can only read between 4 and 7.
The tap water is a touch below 4.7! So yep, we'd have to say acidic and not suitable for mixing coolant with. Thankfully, I've never had to top up the coolant so the acidic tap water has been nowhere near it. And never will after learning this!

But the coolant has been in there for 5 years now. Checked it and it goes as far up the scale as the Ph strips can measure, so Ph 7 at a minimum. But as you are saying it should be significantly higher, so a change out very soon is on my 'to do list'.
So far though, no damage done? Certainly no overheating problems, if anything these colder times are making it slow to heat up, but the thermostat is working.

Thanks all. The way knowledge like this can spread around via a forum still amazes me.

 

[tagnut]

Grober and Tagnut:

I found some Ph strips and did some sampling. The strips can only read between 4 and 7.
The tap water is a touch below 4.7! So yep, we'd have to say acidic and not suitable for mixing coolant with. Thankfully, I've never had to top up the coolant so the acidic tap water has been nowhere near it. And never will after learning this!

4.7 - Didn't think that was likely in tap water, good to know.

But the coolant has been in there for 5 years now. Checked it and it goes as far up the scale as the Ph strips can measure, so Ph 7 at a minimum. But as you are saying it should be significantly higher, so a change out very soon is on my 'to do list'.
So far though, no damage done? Certainly no overheating problems, if anything these colder times are making it slow to heat up, but the thermostat is working.

As per my previous post if the coolant goes below PH 9.0 you should change it. Below 8.3 is considered unacceptable and will cause corrosion in your system. If it's been in there for 5 years I would get it swapped out anyway as it does break down over time. For this reason it is recommended to swap out every two years max.

Thanks all. The way knowledge like this can spread around via a forum still amazes me.

I have learnt so much from this forum it is amazing.

 

[jefrs]

Distilled water exhibits both acid and alkaline properties simultaneously whilst pH7. It exists as H30+ and OH-. It is very corrosive and harmful to drink.

De-ionised water, what you put into your steam iron, is not distilled water, and not quite so corrosive. Whilst you can put de-ionised water into your car battery, the correct stuff is distilled water, to top up the sulphuric acid without poisoning it with the odd minerals that are left in de-ionised water.

Fed into a brand new stainless steel industrial cooling system to test it, distilled water ate all the welds out and corroded the pipework, requiring the whole lot be replaced at vast expense. It is a common fallacy to believe that distilled water, being pure water, is benign: it is not called the universal solvent without reason.

Once water has some minerals dissolved in it, it is less prone to corrode other materials. The water companies actually add minerals (forgotten which) to water to stop it corroding their distribution pipes. Hardness exists in two flavours, permanent hardness and semi-permanent hardness (it's a long time since schoolboy chemistry and I've forgotten which salts and oxides are which). The permanent hardness cannot be removed (precipitated) by boiling and in fact acts as a buffer preventing the water from dissolving more metals and minerals. The semi-permanent hardness is precipitated by boiling, this is what furs up our kettles, and the cooling system of the vehicle.

Therefore if you use boiled water, which has had the semi-permanent hardness precipitated out of it into your kettle as fur, then it will not clog up your car engine. Plus most anti-freeze have buffering agents to prevent corrosion.

 

[jefrs]

pH stands for "potential Hydrogen" and can be measured by electrical means in the lab on a pH meter (doh!)

Universal indicator strips pH 1-14 e.g. linky
UNIVERSAL INDICATOR PAPER > LAB CONSUMABLES > pH & Indicator paper and test strips > Camlab - Laboratory Supplies Equipment and Chemicals for Water Testing in Cambridge

There's an e-bay selling used pH indicator strips -

 

[jefrs]

Any in a position to comment on the above? Damn near bought some distilled water today!!

In the pre-mixed antifreeze solutions on sale, what 'quality' of water is used?

Looks as though it will be Comma XStream G48 Concentrate I will be using (G40 - no MB spec, G30 - MB325.3 = Commercial vehicle and industrial engines), and my first thought re water to mix it with given quoted post was to boil up some tap water. But the tap water here (NE Scotland) is straight off the hills, aka 'well water'. It's corrosive as hell to the copper plumbing (makes it brittle), and turns human hair green! Should I use this as a coolant mix?

Help!!!....

The pre-mix should be fit for purpose, and probably the best choice.

There are buffering agents in most anti-freeze which adjust the pH to prevent corrosion (this does not stop the semi-permanent hardness from furring up the kettle/engine in hard water areas).

The boil-it-first method really only applies to hard water, with "hardness" in it, which is normally slightly alkaline. You appear to have peaty acidic soft water. Your kettles do not fur up. I did not know it could turn your hair green, what colour are your sheep? - I shall have to stop drinking whisky.



As our cars are outside in all weathers, I top up, if required, with neat anti-freeze. I have had a radiator split from frost, imo the garage does not put enough anti-freeze in on service. This weekend I mean to empty the header myself and refill to the line with double concentrate anti-freeze.