Hydrogen power internal combustion engines

[markjay]

But you can go to the garage and buy a gallon of fuel with a can, as yet you cannot buy a gallon of electric

Falling into a ditch isn't as half bad as falling into a well. But both can be avoided if you actually look where you're going...

 

[Dippo]

Toyota have a 1million people employed in Hydrogen technology,

According to their own figures, Toyota employ a total of 71,000, rising to 366,000 across all their consolidated companies.

Overview | Profile | Company | Toyota Motor Corporation Official Global Website

Toyota Motor Corporation Site introduces "Overview". Toyota strives to be a good corporate citizen trusted by all stakeholders and to contribute to the creation of an affluent society through all its business operations. We would like to introduce the Corporate Principles which form the basis of...

global.toyota

 

[Benzowner]

I hired an electric vehicle recently while my car was in for service. As a town car absolutely superb, as a single car for a year totally no go. Long distance driving to Cornwall for work and then drive back 350+ miles not possible on most electric cars. In my working career, involved a lot of driving to places well over 400miles round trips. In my home time, my daughter lives in Luxembourg, previously in Holland. We visit twice a year, no easy with electric so would necessitate us needing 2 cars one for town, electric and one for visits ice vehicle. Until they can get the charging to full charge within 5 minutes, time to fill a combustion fuel tank, I think electric will struggle and they are also not cheap to buy.

 

[markjay]

I hired an electric vehicle recently while my car was in for service. As a town car absolutely superb, as a single car for a year totally no go. Long distance driving to Cornwall for work and then drive back 350+ miles not possible on most electric cars. In my working career, involved a lot of driving to places well over 400miles round trips. In my home time, my daughter lives in Luxembourg, previously in Holland. We visit twice a year, no easy with electric so would necessitate us needing 2 cars one for town, electric and one for visits ice vehicle. Until they can get the charging to full charge within 5 minutes, time to fill a combustion fuel tank, I think electric will struggle and they are also not cheap to buy.

Agreed. It's early days. We're only half-way there. But We're on the right track.

 

[Bellow]

At last we have someone as high profile as Bamford speaking out about the fact that an EV costs twice as much as an ICE car and recognises who will be paying for it when he uses the term 'inflationary'.

Re his intended use of hydrogen - he talks sense. As he makes clear, you can't just add 8 tons of weight without having to add more weight to support it. For sure hydrogen as an ICE fuel isn't the last word in efficiency but if (a big if) the hydrogen is generated from renewables it scarcely matters as reducing CO2 is the crucial aspect. Generating from renewables is also vital for electrification to be viable so no conflict in pursuing that with a view to it going to batteries or hydrogen production.
From the point of view of maintaining employment using existing knowledge bases hydrogen wins here hand down. For industrial machinery running for longer than a typical car's 1 hour per day, hydrogen brought to site in tanks has merit. For road cars the supplying infrastructure is problematic but given our petrol and diesel is currently tankered to filling stations possibly plumbed hydrogen isn't required after all. Hydrogen cars will be larger for the same internal space for passengers and cargo. Ease of parking apart - does that matter?

 

[davymead]

I have a close friend who bought his Tesla a year back and is happy with it overall.
In our discussions on EV’s he’s the first to admit that initially sales are moving at pace, but that he wonders like me how long it will be before we reach the point where we run out of people that can afford one. We could discuss all day the merits of owning a nice new bang up to date EV with all its clever bells and whistles, but that is totally lost if you talk to Joe ordinary on the street, like SO many who drive a £2k car and look on EV’s as a complete joke price wise, and have not the faintest notion or option of ever buying one.

 

[markjay]

At last we have someone as high profile as Bamford speaking out about the fact that an EV costs twice as much as an ICE car and recognises who will be paying for it when he uses the term 'inflationary'.

Re his intended use of hydrogen - he talks sense. As he makes clear, you can't just add 8 tons of weight without having to add more weight to support it. For sure hydrogen as an ICE fuel isn't the last word in efficiency but if (a big if) the hydrogen is generated from renewables it scarcely matters as reducing CO2 is the crucial aspect. Generating from renewables is also vital for electrification to be viable so no conflict in pursuing that with a view to it going to batteries or hydrogen production.
From the point of view of maintaining employment using existing knowledge bases hydrogen wins here hand down. For industrial machinery running for longer than a typical car's 1 hour per day, hydrogen brought to site in tanks has merit. For road cars the supplying infrastructure is problematic but given our petrol and diesel is currently tankered to filling stations possibly plumbed hydrogen isn't required after all. Hydrogen cars will be larger for the same internal space for passengers and cargo. Ease of parking apart - does that matter?

Agreed, and there's a difference between hydrogen fuel cell and burning hydrogen in an ICE.

A fuel cell will work, though my understanding is that the overall process isn't as efficient (yet) as generating electricity for EVs.

 

[st13phil]

As he makes clear, you can't just add 8 tons of weight without having to add more weight to support it.

From an engineering perspective this describes the root problem when it comes to industrial machinery and trucks. Battery packs (whatever the technology) are heavy and the energy density is poor by comparison to hydrocarbon fuels. The weight carried doesn't diminish as the power source drains either. Weight is the #1 enemy of efficiency when it comes to transport (yes, aero is important too, but not at lower speeds) and the perverse effect of having a higher dead mass is that you need a heavier structure to support it, bigger (and therefore heavier) brakes to stop it, bigger (and heavier) roadwheels to support it and so the spiral of inefficiency continues. Those who think battery EV technology can simply be scaled to work when you want to carry a 28-ton payload are living in fantasy land.

For industrial machinery running for longer than a typical car's 1 hour per day, hydrogen brought to site in tanks has merit.

For static, site-based, machinery the fact that you can't carry electricity in a bucket is a very important consideration that is routinely glossed over. Running power cables is not a viable option unless they are to remain and continue to be used after the work of the machinery is completed, which may be possible for developments such as dwellings, but not so likely for (say) the construction of a dam or a bridge.

My view is that there really isn't a "one size fits all" solution to eliminating the use of ICE power units that consume hydrocarbon fuels. Battery EV's are improving with each generation, but are still an imperfect solution for many reasons. Ultimately I suspect that they will become like CD's: a relatively short-lived transition medium between vinyl LP's and digital streaming. I don't profess to know what the endpoint will be, but I can't see it as being where we are currently heading because that has too many insurmountable issues.

 

[m80]

I had an electric car awhile back.
It would be flat in a matter of minutes.

But to be fair that could've been the remote.

 

[BTB 500]

From an engineering perspective this describes the root problem when it comes to industrial machinery and trucks. Battery packs (whatever the technology) are heavy and the energy density is poor by comparison to hydrocarbon fuels. The weight carried doesn't diminish as the power source drains either. Weight is the #1 enemy of efficiency when it comes to transport (yes, aero is important too, but not at lower speeds) and the perverse effect of having a higher dead mass is that you need a heavier structure to support it, bigger (and therefore heavier) brakes to stop it, bigger (and heavier) roadwheels to support it and so the spiral of inefficiency continues. Those who think battery EV technology can simply be scaled to work when you want to carry a 28-ton payload are living in fantasy land.

The latest e-Vito has a quoted WLTP range of 91-92 miles, which might be OK for some commercial applications but would never work for us.

eVito Electric Panel Van | Mercedes-Benz Vans UK

Move your business sustainably with the eVito Panel Van, with a max output of 85kW and a 160 mile range. Discover the eVito Panel Van and buy online today.

www.mercedes-benz.co.uk

 

[Bellow]

For static, site-based, machinery the fact that you can't carry electricity in a bucket is a very important consideration that is routinely glossed over. Running power cables is not a viable option unless they are to remain and continue to be used after the work of the machinery is completed, which may be possible for developments such as dwellings, but not so likely for (say) the construction of a dam or a bridge.

For certain, the ability to provide hydrogen in gas racks (and industry standard) simplifies things enormously. Very possibly for heavy plant, the rack (or bottles from it) can be affixed directly to the end use vehicle.

My view is that there really isn't a "one size fits all" solution to eliminating the use of ICE power units that consume hydrocarbon fuels. Battery EV's are improving with each generation, but are still an imperfect solution for many reasons. Ultimately I suspect that they will become like CD's: a relatively short-lived transition medium between vinyl LP's and digital streaming. I don't profess to know what the endpoint will be, but I can't see it as being where we are currently heading because that has too many insurmountable issues.

I suspect we are going to need a transition technology between here and the transition technology of electrification. ICE on hydrogen as Bamford proposes is hard to fault - in certain applications at least.

 

[Petrol Pete]

As most of us realise even when we are all 'forced' into EV's to save the planet big business , ships , aircraft and heavy machinery will continue to burn dead dinosaurs for years to come .

My wife is a perfect candidate for an EV , the farthest she drives herself is an 80 mile trip to her sisters house , she has two routes , a nice 95% motorway cruise or a pretty cross country route . We have off street parking to charge the car and her sister the same.

Her ancient 1.8 Petrol Vauxhall Zafira covers less than 2000 miles a year, to be honest you could argue she does not really need a car but she refuses to drive my C55 AMG - no idea why - I have asked her many times if she wants a new car but she can not see the point (if I'm honest neither can I) . But ,if one day she does see the need I will have a look at an EV.

Hard to justify though , other than normal wear/service items the Zafira has only needed a new thermostat in 16 years and 65K miles , the aircon is playing up a bit , but I'm on it (it had 10K on it when she bought it) It has never been garaged and only polished twice since we got it and has no rust (the same can not be said of my 2006 MB , but that's a different thread) .

To sum up: the kind of people (SWMBO) who would get the most out of an EV have no need to go to all the expense of getting one ...until being forced into it by legislation. Forcing a perfectly good (but incredibly dull) Zafira going off to the crusher - there is an argument to send ALL Zafira's to the crusher, but that again is different thread )

Again , it is all down to decent infrastructure for EV's to work for all.

 

[st13phil]

To sum up: the kind of people (SWMBO) who would get the most out of an EV have no need to go to all the expense of getting one ...until being forced into it by legislation. Forcing a perfectly good (but incredibly dull) Zafira going off to the crusher

And therein lies the elephant in the room caused by politicians setting arbitrary timetables for complex changes. I suppose the prevailing view regarding the rights and wrongs of that is largely dependent upon whether one buys into the "climate emergency" narrative or not.

Those of us who lived through the various "only x days to save the planet" emergencies of the 1960's, 1970's, 1980's, 1990's, 2000's, etc. are perhaps less inclined to believe in the "urgency" that is the foundation stone of the current policies - but that's for a different thread too

 

[grober]

Interesting technology BUT not readily applicable to cars- the clue is in the necessary LARGE H2 onsite refueling unit [ the large box next to the digger] these machines need to work many hours- but not many miles location wise from a H2 central supply unit. Meaning frequent refuelling- necessary to keep the onboard vehicle H2 Tank small and light relative to vehicle dimensions. for an industrial site or farm not a problem you have your own unique supply infrastructure---but take it a long motorway trip or with no domestic off road parking the same lack of, and acccessibility to , refuelling facilities arguements surely apply the same as to EV's

 

[st13phil]

Interesting technology BUT not readily applicable to cars- the clue is in the necessary LARGE H2 onsite refueling unit [ the large box next to the digger] these machines need to work many hours- but not many miles location wise from a H2 central supply unit. Meaning frequent refuelling- necessary to keep the onboard vehicle H2 Tank small and light relative to vehicle dimensions. for an industrial site or farm not a problem you have your own unique supply infrastructure---but take it a long motorway trip or with no domestic off road parking the same lack of, and acccessibility to , refuelling facilities arguements surely apply the same as to EV's

As I said above, I don't think there's a one size fits all solution and at least JCB have had the gumption to invest in and develop something viable for their customer base instead of simply following the "BEV good, ICE bad" herd.

 

[Bellow]

Hydrogen to be used in ICEs must be generated renewably. There is a margin for fossil fuelled electricity generation for EVs on account of EV's greater conversion efficiency. A conversion efficiency not available with ICEs. If the hydrogen is generated by non-renewable sources by the time all the inefficiencies are factored in, there'll be no gain over just running the end use ICE on diesel or petrol.

Which raises the question of what will happen where electrification is not possible eg, heavy construction, sea shipping, etc. Will there be dispensations to permit ICE and fossil fuels or are large scale construction projects and sea shipping simply to be abandoned?

 

[BTB 500]

Which raises the question of what will happen where electrification is not possible eg, heavy construction, sea shipping, etc. Will there be dispensations to permit ICE and fossil fuels or are large scale construction projects and sea shipping simply to be abandoned?

Don't forget air travel and air freight ... long distance commercial flight isn't going to be electric-powered any time soon.

 

[st13phil]

Hydrogen to be used in ICEs must be generated renewably. There is a margin for fossil fuelled electricity generation for EVs on account of EV's greater conversion efficiency. A conversion efficiency not available with ICEs. If the hydrogen is generated by non-renewable sources by the time all the inefficiencies are factored in, there'll be no gain over just running the end use ICE on diesel or petrol.

Which raises the question of what will happen where electrification is not possible eg, heavy construction, sea shipping, etc. Will there be dispensations to permit ICE and fossil fuels or are large scale construction projects and sea shipping simply to be abandoned?

This is a question that Paddy Lowe, formerly of various F1 teams, and others have been devoting brain power and investment to. Here's an interesting article that discusses some of the issues and argues that synthetic fuels, produced from renewable energy and CO2 captured from the air are a key part of the solution:

Zero Petroleum and the immediate role of synthetic fuels in sustainable energy

If the root of all our climate crisis woes is a highly engineered ecosystem of fossil fuels built upon hundreds of years, can’t we look to simply re-engineer it in the short-term?

www.gasworld.com

As Lowe notes, consuming hydrocarbon fuels in ICE-powered vehicles is only one part of the jigsaw: there are a vast range of materials that we all depend upon that are derived from fossil fuels, so we need to address that too.

 

[Deleted member 126969]

The problem with H2 is it gets a lot of folk excited thinking that they can keep carrying on as things are now.

It WILL have a place in the future, assuming we have a future that is, but for the foreseeable future, there won't be enough green hydrogen around to satisfy even a tiny fraction of demand. At present, 95% of hydrogen is produced from fossil sources so the last thing we should be doing with it is burning it in an ICE or fuel cell - may as well just burn the fossil fuel directly as it's much more efficient and less polluting that converting it to H2 first.

Global energy use for transport is about 32237819166667 kWh....that's a big number. 1kg of h2 contains 33.33kWh...so that would need 967134575967 kg of H2....and that assumes H2 is as efficient as burning fossil fuels (which it isn't)

The best electrolysis processes are at 80% efficiency for production....then you have the overheads of compression & transportation then the efficiency of consumption. Overall, it can be as good as maybe 40% and a lot worse if you burn it in an ICE.

Total global electricity production for the same year was 747TWh, most of it dirty. Assuming all of it was used to make hydrogen, and assume 45kWh to make 1kg (which is generous), we'd be able to make roughly 16600000000 kg per year. A shortfall by a factor of 58....and that assumes 100% efficiency at many stages so it's probably a lot worse. Doesn't look good for a purely H2 economy does it.

Better brains than mine (not hard to find) have already addressed the priority of H2 use and private transport is at the bottom of that list.

 

[zipdip]

Well Fords had Hydrogen vehicles at least 15 years ago,BP were interested in having pumps at their service stations,but at the time there was no headlong rush by the politicians to go electric and no real urge to look at alternative fuel for car or truck,as I had three years experience of having LPG cars it would have worked in the same way,drawbacks are filling took twice as long as a petrol/diesel car and because it was always treated as a fringe fuel ,it had to share a pump with diesel and petrol and of say 8 pumps on the forecourt guess what one was in use when you needed gas,which used get you into conversation as to why you were waiting to fill up when there was 7 empty pumps