Hydrogen power internal combustion engines

[BTB 500]

Toyota has sold a hydrogen (fuel cell) car in the UK for 5 or 6 years now - James May is on his second one.

Toyota Mirai | Explore the Latest Range | Toyota UK

Discover the hydrogen-powered Mirai. With 0% emissions, impressive power and an irresistible driving experience, Mirai is pioneering the future of mobility.

www.toyota.co.uk

 

[Bellow]

I had three years experience of having LPG cars it would have worked in the same way,drawbacks are filling took twice as long as a petrol/diesel car

New LPG pumps are much much faster than the old ones. They are now on a par with diesel and petrol pumps.

 

[Bellow]

Don't forget air travel and air freight ... long distance commercial flight isn't going to be electric-powered any time soon.

Oh no, I didn't forget - just chose not to mention it! Because that took me to asking where dispensations end and that would take me to asking how many dispensations before the whole zero-carbon project disintegrates....

 

[st13phil]

Because that took me to asking where dispensations end and that would take me to asking how many dispensations before the whole zero-carbon project disintegrates....

When ideology and the real world choices of being cold, static and miserable vs being warm, mobile and happy collide?

 

[Riva811]

Russia invited Germany to work together on hydrogen infrastructure. Electricity isn't the future unless we are talking about 5 mile journeys daily

 

[Deleted member 126969]

LPG is somewhat of a byproduct of the oil industry so any use for it was gleefully adopted by the oil producers. I ran an LPG Jeep for about 10 years without any real issues, although yes, you did have to scout about to find a place to get it.

 

[markjay]

Russia invited Germany to work together on hydrogen infrastructure. Electricity isn't the future unless we are talking about 5 mile journeys daily

My office is 6 miles away from my home. It's a 30-45 minutes drive (depending on traffic). An electric car would be ideal for me, I think.

 

[DrNick]

Don't forget air travel and air freight ... long distance commercial flight isn't going to be electric-powered any time soon.

But its definitely coming! Electric flight

 

[BTB 500]

But its definitely coming! Electric flight

Eventually, but there's nothing I know of in the pipeline yet. Airbus' own E-Fan X demonstrator was cancelled without ever actually flying, and that was only a 'hybrid' anyway (with an electric ducted fan replacing one of the four turbofan engines, but powered by a gas turbine driven generator in the fuselage). Electric training aircraft and self-launching gliders are a reality now, but (as with cars & trucks) anything requiring long range and/or significant cargo capacity needs 'future technology' to be viable.

 

[Bellow]

LPG is somewhat of a byproduct of the oil industry so any use for it was gleefully adopted by the oil producers. I ran an LPG Jeep for about 10 years without any real issues, although yes, you did have to scout about to find a place to get it.

Then - like me - you'll be aware how stoutly constructed an LPG tank is to contain its contents at 6-10bar. Hydrogen at 350bar - wow!

 

[Bellow]

There was short-hop electric plane operating in Scotland to one of the islands. Don't know if it is still in use. Very short-hop. It was no sooner taken off before landing.

 

[st13phil]

There was short-hop electric plane operating in Scotland to one of the islands. Don't know if it is still in use. Very short-hop. It was no sooner taken off before landing.

Small electric planes are feasible - and, indeed exist already - but the technology will not scale to large / long range aircraft.

It’s the same principle that applies to the giant insects of sci-fi films of yore: mass increases faster than strength as things increase in size.

 

[Bellow]

Creating something electrically to replicate a jet/turbofan engine's propulsive efficiency must be a tricky proposition. Without it, cruise speeds will be lower.

 

[Deleted member 126969]

Then - like me - you'll be aware how stoutly constructed an LPG tank is to contain its contents at 6-10bar. Hydrogen at 350bar - wow!

Indeed.

It’s 700BAR on the Toyota Mirai as they need to store it as a liquid in order to achieve a worthwhile range in the space available, and the only way to do that at ambient temperature is at a minimum of 700BAR. Unless one of the many attempts at storing H2 at high density but at ambient temperature and low pressure come to pass, then that isn’t going to change either, it being a fundamental physical property of the element.

The JCB running at 350BAR can obviously spare more volume for storage than a large saloon car can.

 

[Petrol Pete]

There are two hydrogen fuel stations within a few miles of each other near the M4 , Closer together than any motorway services in the whole of the UK , why ? One is at the Honda factory..closing down this month . Not sure if the hydrogen station is closing or even if it has even been in use recently.

The other one junction away at Johnson Matthey....manufacturers of hydrogen fuel cells It works ,but a mate of mine who works there tells me it is under almost constant attention of a service team to keep it working.

God knows how far away the next stations are from these twins. Maybe James may will let us know in his next video about his new hydrogen car.

 

[Bellow]

Indeed.

It’s 700BAR on the Toyota Mirai as they need to store it as a liquid in order to achieve a worthwhile range in the space available, and the only way to do that at ambient temperature is at a minimum of 700BAR.

Are you sure it is liquid at 700bar at ambient temp? The internet is telling me hydrogen can't be liquefied at any pressure when its temp is above 33K.

The JCB running at 350BAR can obviously spare more volume for storage than a large saloon car can.

Or, as Grober alludes - has it's re-fuelling point a mere spit away from where it's working.

 

[E55BOF]

From the user perspective at least, all of the Tesla owners I spoke to are extremely satisfied.

(Not a Tesla fan myself, BTW, but for them the concept seems to be working just fine)

If they use motorways much, they must I think be easily satisfied. I seem to see a fair few on any long journey, and they're almost invariably pootling along in the centre lane at 60-70 mph while I cruise past them at about 85, like most of the other higher-performance cars. Perhaps they're all terribly law-abiding, or perhaps the poor dears dare not use the performance because of what it will do to the range...

 

[190]

Seems to me a Hydrogen powered cars are just a token effort at the current state of technology. Too costly to produce with these high pressure fuel tanks and the fuel itself is more expensive than petrol and many times more expensive than charging an EV. For the cost of a Hydrogen car i.e. £70K you can buy an EV with a decent range. By the time Hydrogen cars have been made with reasonable costs, EV's will have solved the range problem making Hydrogen unnecessary. It's all very well for James May to buy them but the £70k asking price won't be a problem. Hydrogen will have a future but I can't see it being in private cars.

 

[Petrol Pete]

My first (and only real) time getting to know a Tesla owner was while I was working in Denmark in 2015. The guy in question was the project manager who had a model S , In 2015 they were only a few years into production . He lived in Malmo Sweden and the Job was in Esbjerg in Denmark , about as far West as you can go before falling into the sea.

His commute was around 200 miles each way. He would turn up at the hotel in the evening , plug his car in the dedicated EV underground parking spaces (this was 6 years ago remember , Denmark way ahead of the game) and get a lift into work with one of us in the morning and bugger off back to Sweden the next day.
.
It was all new to me and he told me some interesting tales about Tesla ownership in 2015. I guess this was early days as he had had numerous motors fail to the point where Tesla sent him a spare one in a box to keep at home so if it failed again the nearest Tesla workshop would have a readily available spare, I saw a photo of it and was surprised at how small it was.

He was not shy to use his Tesla as an everyday car. he took a family holiday in it from Sweden to the south of Italy !! He said the biggest problem was when he arrived at his meticulously planned hotel/guesthouses along the way many of them thought the electric car he had told them he would need to plug in overnight was going to be a tiny little thing and not a full size car, which caused a few charging/parking issues . But nothing an extension lead could not sort out.

His passion was old Japanese performance cars and he told me of a drive from Malmo to Scotland to collect a rare engine he had bought. Yes, he went in the Tesla . he said he ate a lot of meatballs and drank a lot of coffee on that trip as much charging took place at IKEA car parks.

This type of motoring suited a man like him, quite high up the management ladder so could pretty much plan his own diary and obviously good at planning in general, linked to the fact that he only had to add a few thousand Kroner to his allocated company car budget to put him in a Tesla while every kilometre he was legally allowed to claim the 40 cents a Kilometre (or whatever it was) of which just about every penny went into his pocket.

It would not surprise me if he was on Tesla number 4 by now and still loving every minute of it.

One day we will all be like him , hopefully by then EV charging stations will be on every street corner . They are going to have to be.....

 

[markjay]

A friend of mine lives in Boston, USA, and last year bought a Model-S after many years of BMW ownerships.

His daily commute to work is 100 miles. He has a charging point at home (in the building's underground car park) and a charging point at work, but said that it's reassuring for him to know that - if it came to that - he can complete a round trip without charging assuming he started it with a charged battery (apparently 80% charge is sufficient).

So if it works for him... it should work for many people over here, I think.