Hydrogen power internal combustion engines

[Benzowner]

How fast do the batteries degrade? My iPhone battery after 18months is at 87% so a "full" charge is really only 87% and decreasing every year, I assume the batteries in electric cars will also do the same.

 

[markjay]

How fast do the batteries degrade? My iPhone battery after 18months is at 87% so a "full" charge is really only 87% and decreasing every year, I assume the batteries in electric cars will also do the same.

True. This is one of the things that killed the concept of quick battery swaps (avoiding the need to recharge). Owners expect to be given a replacement battery with decent charge, i.e. you would be annoyed if the replacement battery before a long journey only had (say) 60% charge capacity. So batteries would need to be discarded when their capacity goes down to around 90%, because no one would want them. Which made the whole process wasteful and uneconomical. In contrast, when you own the battery, then you accept it will deteriorate over time, much like the tyres and brakes do etc.

 

[st13phil]

In contrast, when you own the battery, then you accept it will deteriorate over time, much like the tyres and brakes do etc.

An interesting analogy.

I wonder how many ICE-powered vehicle owners would be accepting of a fuel tank that reduced in size with age and then cost up to 40% of the original vehicle purchase price to replace?

 

[markjay]

An interesting analogy.

I wonder how many ICE-powered vehicle owners would be accepting of a fuel tank that reduced in size with age and then cost up to 40% of the original vehicle purchase price to replace?

That might have the argument against Mr Dunlop's rubber tyres..... wooden wheels last so much longer

 

[Tonygw]

A friend of mine has a gen 1 Nissan leaf, its a 63 plate and he gets tops, 50 miles range out of it now, its done about 80K miles. Its become a paper weight. Its £3K to replace the battery so isn't economical to replace it.

 

[markjay]

A friend of mine has a gen 1 Nissan leaf, its a 63 plate and he gets tops, 50 miles range out of it now, its done about 80K miles. Its become a paper weight. Its £3K to replace the battery so isn't economical to replace it.

That's why the majority of EVs are sold on a 2 or 3 year lease.

The first owner won't care much about battery deterioration.

Future owners will sort themselves out (or not).

 

[Stratman]

Apart from long tern degradation, how well do they keep their charge if not used for a while? The equivalent of a leaky fuel tank.

 

[markjay]

Apart from long tern degradation, how well do they keep their charge if not used for a while? The equivalent of a leaky fuel tank.

Good question.

An ICE car can be parked-up easily for 3-4 weeks before the battery is discharged to the extent that it can't start the car. I wonder how long can an EV be left parked-up before the battery is depleted?

 

[whitenemesis]

The 12 volt battery in a typical hybrid will be significantly 'smaller' than a typical battery as it only has to start the computers.
Usual life is 2-3 weeks for a healthy example.
The traction (high voltage drive) battery will last many weeks though.

 

[Wolfie1]

We had to het an ev recovered into work a week or 2 ago as the car had sat for a while and the battery went flat and nothing would work on the car, 12v battery needed charging first before the ev battery was able to be charged

 

[markjay]

We had to het an ev recovered into work a week or 2 ago as the car had sat for a while and the battery went flat and nothing would work on the car, 12v battery needed charging first before the ev battery was able to be charged

Any idea how long the car was parked-up before the 12V battery died?

 

[Deleted member 126969]

The 12 volt battery in a typical hybrid will be significantly 'smaller' than a typical battery as it only has to start the computers.
Usual life is 2-3 weeks for a healthy example.
The traction (high voltage drive) battery will last many weeks though.

No idea if it’s typical, but in the C350e, the main 12V battery is a monster, plus the 12V auxiliary “battery” that’s actually a supercapacitor, plus the HV battery of course.

The 12V main battery on the C350e has a hard time with all the stop/start it does as MB decided to use a conventional starter motor rather than using the HV drive motor to crank the ICE.

The 12V system gets powered from a DC/DC converter from the HV battery and this also charges the 12V batteries. The car has HV electric waterpump and A/C compressor and no conventional alternator. No aux belt either, as there’s nothing to drive with it.

It was a long time ago(!), but ISTR that the HV battery lost 1 or 2 % when parked up for a couple of weeks at the airport. You know, those places we used to go to catch a plane…..

I don’t know if the 12V battery can receive any charge from the DC/DC converter if the car is off though.

Hopefully most hybrids have moved over to using the traction motor for cranking the ICE as the starter is a weak point on the C350e

 

[whitenemesis]

Hopefully most hybrids have moved over to using the traction motor for cranking the ICE as the starter is a weak point on the C350e

This is the case with Lexus hybrids, everything is powered by the traction battery (there is no starter motor, MG1 will spin the ICE to 1k revs before the ignition fires), once the 12v has booted the computers to the ready state. So, apart from booting the computers the 12v only powers the entry system and that goes to sleep after 10 days(?) inactivity.
Lexus recommend putting the car into the Ready state once a week, leaving the car in Park. This will enable the traction battery to recharge the 12v battery. Should the traction battery discharge enough the ICE will fire up to recharge it. This is very infrequently and only runs for a few minutes.
As the 12v battery has such a low current draw many owners opt to carry a battery jump starter, only needs to be a small version and this provides more than enough to get the car into the Ready state.
All that said should the traction battery drop critical nothing will work and the car needs to go to the dealership (or indie) equipped with the required kit to recharge it.

 

[Wolfie1]

Any idea how long the car was parked-up before the 12V battery died?

Am not sure sorry, wasnt my job when it came in, just helped push it in as it had to have go jacks on the back wheels as not even the handbrake would release! They are complete clusterfuck of a things I can tell you that though, then moving to 800v in a few years well thats a whole new ball game!

 

[Dazsw]

Most of the power for electric vehicles is produced using fossil fuels in power stations.

EV will make sense once all fuel is created using renewables.

Until then EV power is not clean due to where it comes from.

 

[markjay]

Most of the power for electric vehicles is produced using fossil fuels in power stations.

EV will make sense once all fuel is created using renewables.

Until then EV power is not clean due to where it comes from.

Agreed. And the move to EV will allow us to swap the energy generation method to a cleaner alternative at a later date. EVs don't care how their electricity is produced, hence the advantage in moving everyone (as far as possible) to EVs.

 

[markjay]

The funny thing is... for years we had people coming on here with costly DPF issues, and the answer was almost always that EU5/EU6 Diesels are not suitable for short journeys and low annual mileage.

More recently, we get people complaining about EV range and battery deterioration. The answer is that EV isn't the right car for you if your daily commute is 3-figures.

People who only ever drive their car to the shops, will find an EV their ideal vehicle, not only because of battery range, but also because short journeys don't really have a detrimental effect on an EV.

People who commute 100+ miles a day, should stick to their Diesel cars (for now...).

Everyone else - buy a petrol car, while they last

 

[Tuercas viejas]

The 12 volt battery in a typical hybrid will be significantly 'smaller' than a typical battery as it only has to start the computers.
Usual life is 2-3 weeks for a healthy example.
The traction (high voltage drive) battery will last many weeks though.

I have seen them parked up for months without an issue AND I even received one that had been submerged in a flood .
Having dried it out & changed the starting AGM battery it fired right up.
Then it was deal with the stink of the rotted interior.
Tuercas Viejas

 

[Benzowner]

Most of the power for electric vehicles is produced using fossil fuels in power stations.

EV will make sense once all fuel is created using renewables.

Until then EV power is not clean due to where it comes from.

Only 2 coal fire power stations in mainland UK both in Nottingham and one in Co Antrim and a number of gas fired power stations. What is amazing is according to OFGEM fossil fuels still account for 74% of our power https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/docs/2006/04/13537-elecgenfactsfs.pdf I find that quite high.

 

[Tuercas viejas]

Only 2 coal fire power stations in mainland UK both in Nottingham and one in Co Antrim and a number of gas fired power stations. What is amazing is according to OFGEM fossil fuels still account for 74% of our power https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/docs/2006/04/13537-elecgenfactsfs.pdf I find that quite high.

This from the USA!
T/V

Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

www.eia.gov