Hydrogen power internal combustion engines

[Tonygw]

What nonsense.....nearly everything in that post is factually incorrect or outdated. I hate EVs with a passion.....but hydrogen is not the answer for road cars at least not yet...and I doubt it will be in my lifetime, if ever.....not to mention how dangerous it is to move and store.

I'll leave you EXPERTS to it!!

Dangerous?? Have you kept upto date with the type testing done on storage and transportation?? Its safer than transporting petrol now. The specifications for the pressure vessels is immense and tightly controlled. and the testing already completed has proven the technology.

Im not going to argue with the main stream car companies developing it, its their strategy for business growth in their sector. Battery is a stop gap, I think they always knew that.

 

[st13phil]

Never happen on road cars....not in my lifetime at least and certainly not until we have more renewable electricity that we know what to do with (if that ever happens). Making hydrogen takes massive amount of electricity, electricity that far more efficient to use powering cars directly that creating more loses putting it through another, very inefficient process. Too much time and money has been spent on EVs and is being spent on their infrastructure to go back now......much as I like the idea and its pretty much sticking with ICE cars I just cant see it happening. How many times over the last fifty or sixty years has hydrogen been the next big thing?.....and how many times did it happen?....quite.
Common sense must tell you that using one fuel to (inefficiently) make another fuel is never going to be greener.....especially when the fuel you make has so many losses when being used as it will only have about the same thermal efficiency as burning petrol...about 40% percent of the energy it contains goes into making the car go forward in a petrol car (55 to 60% in a diesel) due to losses such as heat/noise. As much as I dislike EVs, electricity is a very efficient way of moving a car.....being about 85 to 90% efficient.
But I'm probably wrong eh....so I will just sit back and wait for all the hydrogen cars and fuel stations to appear !!!....but I wont be holding my breath. However for vehicles that cant recharge.....like planes, ships etc....hydrogen does have possibilities.

Did you actually watch the posted episode?

It was (essentially) about how battery electric power is totally unsuitable for JCB's type of plant machinery and also for HGV's due to a combination of the required duty cycle and the mass of the battery required to meet those needs.

It was also about how for some countries - like India - who have to import all fossil fuel energy sources but have abundant sun, hydrogen production via solar generated electricity actually makes huge sense already. America is also investing heavily in reducing the cost of hydrogen production.

Bamford made the point that the average car operates for around 50 minutes per day, while their plant machinery, HGV's, Buses, and the like run for 8 hours or more per day. With battery power being unsuitable for those vehicles, there is a strong impetus for the building of hydrogen distribution and refuelling points, and it's already happening - except in the UK. If that continues and expands, the economics of hydrogen-powered road cars shifts dramatically, so I'd not be quite so quick to dismiss hydrogen as a viable alternative energy source.

 

[ALFAitalia]

From a technical paper I just read on the subject....this was part of the summary....now I really am out!!!!

There are two major problems with a hydrogen internal combustion engine. First, hydrogen is not as energy-dense as other fuels, meaning that you need a whole lot of it to do a little bit of work. Couple that with the inherent inefficiency of a piston engine (at best, you're only turning about 30 percent of the fuel's energy into forward motion compared to around 90% of electricity), and you've got a recipe for disappointment.

The second problem? When you combust hydrogen, you get other emissions besides water vapor. Mainly, you get NOx, the toxic emission at the heart of the Volkswagen diesel emissions cheating scandal. If you're looking for a clean alternative to gasoline, hydrogen's NOx emissions take it out of the running.

 

[st13phil]

If you're looking for a clean alternative to gasoline, hydrogen's NOx emissions take it out of the running.

As I asked, did you actually watch the posted episode?

If you had, you would know that JCB's development focussed on combustion efficiency and - importantly - elimination of NOx emissions which they say they've achieved.

 

[Doodle]

AB mentioning small nuclear made me instantly think...

 

[E55BOF]

A little-known prototype:

 

[Tonygw]

From a technical paper I just read on the subject....this was part of the summary....now I really am out!!!!

There are two major problems with a hydrogen internal combustion engine. First, hydrogen is not as energy-dense as other fuels, meaning that you need a whole lot of it to do a little bit of work. Couple that with the inherent inefficiency of a piston engine (at best, you're only turning about 30 percent of the fuel's energy into forward motion compared to around 90% of electricity), and you've got a recipe for disappointment.

The second problem? When you combust hydrogen, you get other emissions besides water vapor. Mainly, you get NOx, the toxic emission at the heart of the Volkswagen diesel emissions cheating scandal. If you're looking for a clean alternative to gasoline, hydrogen's NOx emissions take it out of the running.

If you watch the video, JCB have solved the NOX problem from internal combustion by reducing the combustion temperatures.

Any new tech has issues, nothing is perfect. Its nice to see them engineer a solution though. Interesting times ahead.

 

[fabes]

As an aside, I am intending to do the JCB factory tour this summer (whilst the family does nearby Alton Towers for their second day)
Will be a bonus if they now include reference to their progress (or not) on this on that

 

[markjay]

If you watch the video, JCB have solved the NOX problem from internal combustion by reducing the combustion temperatures.

Any new tech has issues, nothing is perfect. Its nice to see them engineer a solution though. Interesting times ahead.

Brilliant engineering, but I think their business model is on shaky ground. They are developing an engine specifically to meet current regulatory emissions standards. How adaptable is their solution, if the EU and UK move the goalposts with regard to exhaust emissions?

 

[BTB 500]

Brilliant engineering, but I think their business model is on shaky ground. They are developing an engine specifically to meet current regulatory emissions standards. How adaptable is their solution, if the EU and UK move the goalposts with regard to exhaust emissions?

They claim the raw exhaust emissions contain less NOx than comes out of the tailpipe of latest spec. diesels, and that if required they can reduce this to a level so low that it can't be measured.

Other than that it's just water (steam). No carbon being burned, so no particulates or CO2 to worry about.

 

[zipdip]

Well we live in a insane world at the moment,it is a given that we need to clean up the air,but the number one way to do so is off the table the big polluters like China, USA,India and the far east are all blanking the idea that they should stop anytime soon,and so we get the secondary ideas roaring on EV cars,Heat pumps and the like,people who own EV's think they are great mainly due to the fact they do very little mileage,we have seen the pit falls of trying to conduct business witha EV like a diesel car,chargers not working and when they are waiting to spend 40 mins charging,.
I have worked in companies where electric vehicles were/are used they might do 5 miles a day before overnight charging ,as a boy the United Dairies in London used electric milk floats a great idea again less than 7 miles covered then back to base and the charger.
Large vehicles are very suited to Hydrogen,Ford went along with this idea for a few years but stopped mostly because the cost but there were a few Mondeos running about and might have been a success but there was no fuel companies happy to change any number of their sites to include Hydrogen.
The government have tried to make EV cars attractive and they are to business,with the grants the cars are practically for nothing,but the general motorist is not buying in any numbers,and even the USA the take up is very small.
We are living history and I suspect countless hours will be spent by students in 24th cent trying to figure out how we managed to get in this mess,
for me well I will buy a petrol car in maybe two years then when that is a no no I will give up driving.

 

[Bellow]

JCB claim direct injection but don't elaborate on how the hydrogen is liquified to achieve this. The injector shown in the Harry's Garage video appears to be a liquid fuel type and what appears to be their supply pipes (visible on the partially assembled engine on the production line) are small diameter - unsuited to handling gaseous flow. To my knowledge, there is no injector capable of direct in-cylinder injection that can inject fuel in its vapour phase. Hydrogen can only be liquified by cooling - to minus 253C.

Found another article (dated Nov 2022 - so assume it is the engine as it is configured in Harry's Garage piece) here >> JCB Is Exploring Hydrogen Combustion Engines For Construction Machinery
There's an embedded video which at 3m22s shows Keihin CNG injectors situated on the inlet manifold. These are off-the-shelf injectors for CNG which is in vapour form. Unless the engine shown is the older one pre-direct injection the new engine is not exclusively DI (I suspect it is an older engine).
The video also shows JCB's developed method of refuelling. ''Tube container'' I assume is 'industrial gas rack' (as seen in the earlier JCB launch video). The mobile bowser looks like an additional truck is required. On vehicle storage is 5 of 1kg aluminium and carbon fibre tanks - illustrating I think the difficulty in manufacturing storage of high pressure hydrogen at scale - even 5kg.

Maybe the only instance of me ever saying this - but the comments are worth a read.
Not least as it seems a better use of hydrogen could be to combine it with CO2 to create synthetic hydrocarbon fuels. In synch with green hydrogen production it obviates having to store hydrogen - to which there is no realistic solution - while storing hydrocarbon fuels is child's play.

Has Bamford bet the farm on hydrogen? Probably not. He hasn't relinquished the production facility for diesel engines - only added the capability to manufacture hydrogen fuelled variants - so should the production of affordable green hydrogen fail to materialise he can return to diesel - with exclusions possibly from certain markets. If the hydrogen isn't green though, then all that is achieved here is a relocation of CO2 production at some cost to the end consumer - which is always us.

 

[BTB 500]

JCB claim direct injection but don't elaborate on how the hydrogen is liquified to achieve this. The injector shown in the Harry's Garage video appears to be a liquid fuel type and what appears to be their supply pipes (visible on the partially assembled engine on the production line) are small diameter - unsuited to handling gaseous flow. To my knowledge, there is no injector capable of direct in-cylinder injection that can inject fuel in its vapour phase. Hydrogen can only be liquified by cooling - to minus 253C.

Found another article (dated Nov 2022 - so assume it is the engine as it is configured in Harry's Garage piece) here >> JCB Is Exploring Hydrogen Combustion Engines For Construction Machinery
There's an embedded video which at 3m22s shows Keihin CNG injectors situated on the inlet manifold. These are off-the-shelf injectors for CNG which is in vapour form. Unless the engine shown is the older one pre-direct injection the new engine is not exclusively DI (I suspect it is an older engine).
The video also shows JCB's developed method of refuelling. ''Tube container'' I assume is 'industrial gas rack' (as seen in the earlier JCB launch video). The mobile bowser looks like an additional truck is required. On vehicle storage is 5 of 1kg aluminium and carbon fibre tanks - illustrating I think the difficulty in manufacturing storage of high pressure hydrogen at scale - even 5kg.

Maybe the only instance of me ever saying this - but the comments are worth a read.
Not least as it seems a better use of hydrogen could be to combine it with CO2 to create synthetic hydrocarbon fuels. In synch with green hydrogen production it obviates having to store hydrogen - to which there is no realistic solution - while storing hydrocarbon fuels is child's play.

Has Bamford bet the farm on hydrogen? Probably not. He hasn't relinquished the production facility for diesel engines - only added the capability to manufacture hydrogen fuelled variants - so should the production of affordable green hydrogen fail to materialise he can return to diesel - with exclusions possibly from certain markets. If the hydrogen isn't green though, then all that is achieved here is a relocation of CO2 production at some cost to the end consumer - which is always us.

IIRC the video said the production hydrogen engine isn't direct injection, but it is planned for the future.

Also confirmed that they would continue manufacturing diesels (the production lines are set up for both), and they would be incorporating some of the efficiency ideas developed on the hydrogen engines into them.

 

[st13phil]

Not least as it seems a better use of hydrogen could be to combine it with CO2 to create synthetic hydrocarbon fuels.

FWIW, Paddy Lowe is a long way down that road with his Zero Petroleum venture.

 

[Bellow]

IIRC the video said the production hydrogen engine isn't direct injection, but it is planned for the future.

Fair point - I can't find any mention of DI - present or future. The power point presentation appears to direct into the cylinder but it must be the injectors located in the ports as close to the valves as possible.
Did anyone catch the torque output figure? Sounds like he said ( at 9m12s) 440 Nm (295lb.ft) but surely that's too low.

 

[st13phil]

Did anyone catch the torque output figure? Sounds like he said ( at 9m12s) 440 Nm (295lb.ft) but surely that's too low.

I didn't take note of the numbers quoted, but he did make a point of saying that they had gone to a great deal of effort to give the engine precisely the same driving feel of the diesel variant, to the extent of completely matching the torque and power curves of the diesel engine with the hydrogen-fuelled variant.

On the broader topic of BEV vs. Hydrogen Fuel vs Fuel Cell vs. Synthetic Fuels I'm really pleased that serious research & development is going on into all options. I'm pretty convinced that the "solution" will not be any particular one of those technologies, but instead that different technologies will turn out to be most appropriate for different applications. To close the door - through legislation - on any of the options at this stage would, imo, be an act of insanity.

 

[Tonygw]

Brilliant engineering, but I think their business model is on shaky ground. They are developing an engine specifically to meet current regulatory emissions standards. How adaptable is their solution, if the EU and UK move the goalposts with regard to exhaust emissions?

Don't you think they have thought of that, they are not amateur's ;-)
Exhaust emissions are dry steam only so there are no regulations to meet unless the Uk and EU regulate dry steam output.

 

[Bellow]

I didn't take note of the numbers quoted, but he did make a point of saying that they had gone to a great deal of effort to give the engine precisely the same driving feel of the diesel variant, to the extent of completely matching the torque and power curves of the diesel engine with the hydrogen-fuelled variant.

I checked the diesel outputs and 440Nm is the torque claimed for one of the lower output engines. Any 5.0 litre NA petrol engine can deliver that at a fraction of the cost.

On the broader topic of BEV vs. Hydrogen Fuel vs Fuel Cell vs. Synthetic Fuels I'm really pleased that serious research & development is going on into all options. I'm pretty convinced that the "solution" will not be any particular one of those technologies, but instead that different technologies will turn out to be most appropriate for different applications. To close the door - through legislation - on any of the options at this stage would, imo, be an act of insanity.

If, there was an abundance of green electricity - or when - then synthetic fuels would permit the use of cheap engines of any thermal inefficiency. Eg, a 'crate' GM 5,7 V8 with 260hp and 330lb.ft for circa $4500. Pursuing bio-fuels in the short term would be reasonable step in keeping ICE alive - but not enough will change their diet to free up the agricultural land. Pursuing bio-fuels would likely liberate a solution and use for waste vegetation that currently emits CO2 in its degradation. Focussing on hard to store (battery, hydrogen, etc) electricity alone will limit options and capability (eg, quick refuelling) but is necessary to create the type of fuels the world has ran on for the last century. All that has to change is that they are CO2 neutral. I've owned enough lap tops to know batteries suck. My V8 will outlast me.

 

[st13phil]

I've owned enough lap tops to know batteries suck. My V8 will outlast me.

Isn't that the truth (x2)!

 

[markjay]

I guess my point is that the key issue that needs to be addressed is how do we consume less energy overall. At current, all method of energy production have massive environmental footprints. And the same applies to vehicle manufacturing. My worry is that when someone comes along and says 'hey, I found a clean method of propulsion' - be it BEV, FuelCell, Hydrogen fuel, etc - people start thinking 'great news, so we can all continue and buy more cars and drive them more'. JCB obviously make construction vehicles, which we clearly do need, but just to say that their engine isn't a 'get out of jail' card for our personal mobility issues.