Hydrogen power internal combustion engines

[190]

What is amazing is according to OFGEM fossil fuels still account for 74% of our power https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/docs/2006/04/13537-elecgenfactsfs.pdf I find that quite high.

74% is the figure for 2005 so 15 years out of date. I did try to find something more recent but gave up struggling with Ofgems web site.

Gov.uk suggests the figure for 2020 is more like 40% generation from fossil fuels.

 

[SW18]

The UK’s electricity mix in recent years is about 40% gas, 40% renewables, 20% nuclear and others. Give or take.

Detailed stats here: Energy trends

Live stats here: National Grid: Live Status
(These are quite fun to read to see the impact of a sunny windy day; demand going up and down; flow of power through the UK’s international interconnects; etc)

 

[SW18]

On the subject of hydrogen, it seems that the U.K. has a world leader, ITM Power. ITM Power | Energy Storage | Clean Fuel

It’s companies like this that I think the government could do much better at nurturing, to build a globally leading energy transition industry. There’s going to be a lot of money in this stuff...

 

[st13phil]

The UK’s electricity mix in recent years is about 40% gas, 40% renewables, 20% nuclear and others. Give or take.

Gas is so high due to the unreliability of renewables as a source. Gas is the only generating capacity that can be rapidly started and stopped.

And if the antI-nuclear numpties had their way it would be even higher, or we’d all be “enjoying” regular power cuts.

 

[Dazsw]

Gas is so high due to the unreliability of renewables as a source. Gas is the only generating capacity that can be rapidly started and stopped.

And if the antI-nuclear numpties had their way it would be even higher, or we’d all be “enjoying” regular power cuts.

We should have more nuclear plants, the latest designs are so much better, just we don't actually have much nuclear techs or knowledge in the UK, we need to get other countries like France to help us out, and they will then charge sky high electricity prices like what will happen at Hinkley Point C.

 

[190]

We should have more nuclear plants, the latest designs are so much better, just we don't actually have much nuclear techs or knowledge in the UK, we need to get other countries like France to help us out, and they will then charge sky high electricity prices like what will happen at Hinkley Point C.

We would be hopeless at building a large scale nuclear plant. The price at which the project was justified would end up double or triple. When did we ever build anything big at it's original cost.

One possible answer is factory built mass produced modular units at you would hope a fixed price. A Rolls Royce consortium are already working on it and if we can't do the modular ones at a sensible price someone else will. The US is working on them too.

Rolls-Royce plans 16 mini-nuclear plants for UK

Advanced Small Modular Reactors (SMRs)

 

[markjay]

Aren't the Chinese building our nuclear power plants?

 

[grober]

As long as people don't get the impression this something new.

Small Nuclear Power Reactors - World Nuclear Association

There is revival of interest in small and simpler units for generating electricity from nuclear power, and for process heat. This interest in smaller nuclear power reactors is driven both by a desire to reduce the impact of capital costs and to provide power away from large grid systems.

www.world-nuclear.org

 

[190]

As long as people don't get the impression this something new.

Interesting link and some good explanations of how safe they are using low grade fuel. If they are not new you have to wonder why it's taking so long to get small nuclear reactors in into production for commercial electricity generation. Anyway some good news today about Rolls Royce getting the funding to develop them.
The Greenies will of course object on principal even though they are very safe but someone needs to tell them that we need base load capability that can never be provided by wind or solar. If the government determine that proposed small nuclear reactors are safe, they need to tell any objectors to take a hike and just get on with bringing them on stream. No public enquiries or any other time wasting nonsense just get on with it.


Rolls-Royce gets funding to develop mini nuclear reactors

 

[Wolfie1]

Interesting link and some good explanations of how safe they are using low grade fuel. If they are not new you have to wonder why it's taking so long to get small nuclear reactors in into production for commercial electricity generation. Anyway some good news today about Rolls Royce getting the funding to develop them.
The Greenies will of course object on principal even though they are very safe but someone needs to tell them that we need base load capability that can never be provided by wind or solar. If the government determine that proposed small nuclear reactors are safe, they need to tell any objectors to take a hike and just get on with bringing them on stream. No public enquiries or any other time wasting nonsense just get on with it.


Rolls-Royce gets funding to develop mini nuclear reactors

Yup but you just know there will be 10 years of talks 100 million in costs on arguments, studys and meetings and then they will build them

 

[DrNick]

Interesting technology BUT not readily applicable to cars- the clue is in the necessary LARGE H2 onsite refueling unit [ the large box next to the digger] these machines need to work many hours- but not many miles location wise from a H2 central supply unit. Meaning frequent refuelling- necessary to keep the onboard vehicle H2 Tank small and light relative to vehicle dimensions. for an industrial site or farm not a problem you have your own unique supply infrastructure---but take it a long motorway trip or with no domestic off road parking the same lack of, and acccessibility to , refuelling facilities arguements surely apply the same as to EV's

Surely the answer for JCB is to develop quick swappable battery packs which can be charged on site. If all the solutions require on site infrastructure, why not go with the flow and leverage the giant investment in EV technology instead of going it alone against the flow. JCB aren't that big a company

 

[davymead]

Surely the answer for JCB is to develop quick swappable battery packs which can be charged on site. If all the solutions require on site infrastructure, why not go with the flow and leverage the giant investment in EV technology instead of going it alone against the flow. JCB aren't that big a company

Does make you think …. When you look how successful they are

 

[Bellow]

The small matter of a suitable battery pack weighing 8 tons and the complete vehicle redesign to accommodate it?

 

[tode]

Double

 

[DrNick]

The small matter of a suitable battery pack weighing 8 tons and the complete vehicle redesign to accommodate it?

Vehicle design is what they do! And a battery pack could be designed by those who know about batteries. 8 tonnes seems like an arbitrary number. It may be unworkable if you are expecting to get an unreasonable amount of operating time from a single battery pack but maybe the way of operating needs looking at? If its quick enough to change a reasonable sized battery(from the cunningly designed vehicle), on site you don't have to go far to change it. For some plant it may even be feasible to run them on long cables direct! The point being that if infrastructure is already being installed on sites before commencement, why not consider installing electricity infrastructure as well? We need some imaginative thinking otherwise nothing will change, and that thinking needs to be revisited every so often as the baseline changes. "If I'd asked people what they want, they would have said a faster horse", Henry Ford didn't say, but the sentiment is correct.

Batteries may not be feasible now for all applications, but the pace of change is very fast. They may well be feasible before hydrogen becomes cost effective. But I imagine JCB have probably looked into it more than I have

 

[Bellow]

Vehicle design is what they do! And a battery pack could be designed by those who know about batteries. 8 tonnes seems like an arbitrary number. It may be unworkable if you are expecting to get an unreasonable amount of operating time from a single battery pack but maybe the way of operating needs looking at? If its quick enough to change a reasonable sized battery(from the cunningly designed vehicle), on site you don't have to go far to change it.

JCB itself said it just isn't practical to add the required battery weight without having to uprate just about every other component in the vehicle to cope with the additional weight. A complete redesign is a nice but very costly idea.

For some plant it may even be feasible to run them on long cables direct! The point being that if infrastructure is already being installed on sites before commencement, why not consider installing electricity infrastructure as well?

Chicken or egg. How do you install the supporting infrastructure with plant that requires said infrastructure to operate?

We need some imaginative thinking otherwise nothing will change, and that thinking needs to be revisited every so often as the baseline changes. "If I'd asked people what they want, they would have said a faster horse", Henry Ford didn't say, but the sentiment is correct.

Indeed we do and that is exactly what JCB is presenting - an imaginative solution for where it has deemed the 'norm' of electrification unsuitable.

Batteries may not be feasible now for all applications, but the pace of change is very fast. They may well be feasible before hydrogen becomes cost effective. But I imagine JCB have probably looked into it more than I have

Battery tech may possibly be more mature than we realise. Decades have gone in to battery development and still they are found wanting. That implies that there is a limited development in them but still plenty of applications in need of energy. Hydrogen by contrast is well understood but at the earliest stages of what is possible. JCB are right to raise it as a solution equally deserving of development as electrifications and with potentially bigger gains to be had. And if it (JCB) have to point out the unsuitability (as they find it) of electrification - so be it.

 

[Tonygw]

Battery EV is just something thats "on trend" at the moment, a brief look at history paints the story so far.

1970-80's Big V8's V6's, 2.0litre 1.6litre carburetor cars no catalytic converters
1990's the same but fuel injected with catalytic converters, clean and friendly to the environment
2,000 the rise of the diesel, the future! economical less polluting
2010 What.. Stop using diesel its a damaging and polluting use small engine petrol cars 1ltr eco boosts etc
2020.. Hybrid petrol's, pure EV, that's the future now!!
2030 who knows.. horse and cart? oh no horses fart to much and are polluting..

The future.. Who knows.. I don't think anybody really does.

 

[DrNick]

JCB itself said it just isn't practical to add the required battery weight without having to uprate just about every other component in the vehicle to cope with the additional weight. A complete redesign is a nice but very costly idea.

Chicken or egg. How do you install the supporting infrastructure with plant that requires said infrastructure to operate?

Indeed we do and that is exactly what JCB is presenting - an imaginative solution for where it has deemed the 'norm' of electrification unsuitable.

Battery tech may possibly be more mature than we realise. Decades have gone in to battery development and still they are found wanting. That implies that there is a limited development in them but still plenty of applications in need of energy. Hydrogen by contrast is well understood but at the earliest stages of what is possible. JCB are right to raise it as a solution equally deserving of development as electrifications and with potentially bigger gains to be had. And if it (JCB) have to point out the unsuitability (as they find it) of electrification - so be it.

I'm not particularly an advocate of EV, but of creative thinking and questioning the status quo. Hydrogen has attractions but has drawbacks as well, some of which are not so obvious. We can't put it straight into gas mains for example as it makes iron pipes more brittle, but its probably ok in PE pipes. Not a problem for JCB if its making it on site. But hydrogen has been touted as the next big things for many years without really making much headway, whereas EV seems to have suddenly reached critical mass. The hydrogen has to come form somewhere - can it be generated at a quick enough rate on site by solar for example, or does it have to be topped up regularly from a tanker from elsewhere - or is there a giant diesel generator powering the hydrogen cracking machine (I'm being facetious!). I just worry about other vested interests, such as that which lead to the battle between VHS and Betamax, but I don't think porn will be the deciding factor in this battle!
I suspect there will be a case for both going forward though. Just interested!

 

[markjay]

Vehicle design is what they do! And a battery pack could be designed by those who know about batteries. 8 tonnes seems like an arbitrary number. It may be unworkable if you are expecting to get an unreasonable amount of operating time from a single battery pack but maybe the way of operating needs looking at? If its quick enough to change a reasonable sized battery(from the cunningly designed vehicle), on site you don't have to go far to change it. For some plant it may even be feasible to run them on long cables direct! The point being that if infrastructure is already being installed on sites before commencement, why not consider installing electricity infrastructure as well? We need some imaginative thinking otherwise nothing will change, and that thinking needs to be revisited every so often as the baseline changes. "If I'd asked people what they want, they would have said a faster horse", Henry Ford didn't say, but the sentiment is correct.

Batteries may not be feasible now for all applications, but the pace of change is very fast. They may well be feasible before hydrogen becomes cost effective. But I imagine JCB have probably looked into it more than I have

How about a battery trailer?

 

[BTB 500]

How about a battery trailer?

Could work for some applications but depends a lot on the vehicle - not an option for anything with a backhoe etc. on the back (like a JCB). Would also make it longer & more cumbersome to manoueuvre on busy sites.