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Isn't that what early noughties mercs suffered from ?
Is it still worth going to university?
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Isn't that what early noughties mercs suffered from ?
Darrell
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We she announced what she was studying my mate told everyone she was going to be the next BBC weather presenter.
MikeInWimbledon
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Amen, but sounds more like the 70's than the 20's
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Whatever feels right for them is the right answer, and that might change over time eg start university and later drop out, or start a degree (much) later in life.
The reality is that a university degree has nothing really to do with success - however it’s measured - unless the individual’s dream is to simply get a degree (uncommon) or work in profession which requires a very specific degree as the entry point (becoming uncommon).
In the real world, experience matters immeasurably more than a degree, and the value of even a very good degree degrades rapidly. Years ago a degree was a good way to differentiate at the beginning of a career, these days that really only applies if applying for graduate positions in top profession firms link law, banking, accounting and consultancy.
I would say that truly successful people are largely successful as a result of one or more of the following, and none are linked to having a a degree:
PS All of that said, based upon what you’ve said and their academic ability, if they really have no idea what they want to do then get a traditional degree from the best regarded university possible as that will keep the most options open, and it’s as good as anything in the absence of clear direction.
The reality is that a university degree has nothing really to do with success - however it’s measured - unless the individual’s dream is to simply get a degree (uncommon) or work in profession which requires a very specific degree as the entry point (becoming uncommon).
In the real world, experience matters immeasurably more than a degree, and the value of even a very good degree degrades rapidly. Years ago a degree was a good way to differentiate at the beginning of a career, these days that really only applies if applying for graduate positions in top profession firms link law, banking, accounting and consultancy.
I would say that truly successful people are largely successful as a result of one or more of the following, and none are linked to having a a degree:
- Knowing what they enjoy and what they’re really good at
- Knowing that they have to work long & hard, and take risks
- Knowing that luck is even more important than ability & effort
- Knowing what success is when they have achieved it
PS All of that said, based upon what you’ve said and their academic ability, if they really have no idea what they want to do then get a traditional degree from the best regarded university possible as that will keep the most options open, and it’s as good as anything in the absence of clear direction.
So, I went to a fairly good grammar school back in the early 70's. By O level time I didn't really know what I wanted to do so parents paid for some aptitude tests. From that it was decided I wanted to be a quantity surveyor & the route to that was through the local civic college. I then needed an additional year at school as I needed a "science" O level which I had failed.
School was hopeless with careers advice as it was assumed that pupils would move onto A levels then top universities.
I enrolled onto a full time OND course followed by a full time HND course.
I found that others had taken ONC & HNC courses part time sponsored by employers & they were earning wages & gaining experience.
However, through family contacts I landed a job.
Throughout my career I have been held back by others & have failed to take charge of my own destination.
Number 1 son was encouraged by school in the mid/late 20's that he must go to university even though, like me, he had no career in mind at that age. His school results were not good, like mine, were always " must try harder". He left uni with a scraped chemistry degree, a desire never having anything to do with chemistry in the future, but he had a good time accumulating his student debt.
He fell on his feet answering a job application we put in front of him and is now a successful hearing aid specialist. No doubt the uni "education" (piss up/debt) helped concentrate his mind but he is now earning more than I do.
Number 2 son had no desire for university. He wanted to be an accountant but started working for me for about a year, then an electrical contractor specialising in solar panels in the boom times up to Feb 2012. He then moved to an accountants office as a trainee. He is still there now taking his final exams.
Univ
School was hopeless with careers advice as it was assumed that pupils would move onto A levels then top universities.
I enrolled onto a full time OND course followed by a full time HND course.
I found that others had taken ONC & HNC courses part time sponsored by employers & they were earning wages & gaining experience.
However, through family contacts I landed a job.
Throughout my career I have been held back by others & have failed to take charge of my own destination.
Number 1 son was encouraged by school in the mid/late 20's that he must go to university even though, like me, he had no career in mind at that age. His school results were not good, like mine, were always " must try harder". He left uni with a scraped chemistry degree, a desire never having anything to do with chemistry in the future, but he had a good time accumulating his student debt.
He fell on his feet answering a job application we put in front of him and is now a successful hearing aid specialist. No doubt the uni "education" (piss up/debt) helped concentrate his mind but he is now earning more than I do.
Number 2 son had no desire for university. He wanted to be an accountant but started working for me for about a year, then an electrical contractor specialising in solar panels in the boom times up to Feb 2012. He then moved to an accountants office as a trainee. He is still there now taking his final exams.
Univ
Oops, didn't finish the above.
So, for me, bright people need encouraging through university for their chosen career. But, for the rest of us, vocational training & experience is a better option.
There is no right or wrong here. Education is very valuable, but you really have to want to learn.
My life has never followed a 'normal' path. After 'A' levels at Grammar school, I deferred my entry to uni for a year where I was set to study engineering.
I was too busy playing music at the time, and now, over 50 years later, I'm still in my gap year....
I have been to a number of universities, but only to lecture and not to be taught. I have even delivered the IMech E annual lecture on Engineering Excellence, although I am neither a member or have a degree.
My wife, on the other hand, trained as a nurse at Westminster and later got both a degree and PHD.
I have only had a 'real' job for 6 months (designing heat exchangers!) between having my own company servicing the music industry and then enjoying my 'hobby' of motorsport for the past 45 years.
My one take away from this is: if you enjoy what you are doing and have a passion for it, do it.
You can learn on the job and the order you do things in is not set in stone.
My life has never followed a 'normal' path. After 'A' levels at Grammar school, I deferred my entry to uni for a year where I was set to study engineering.
I was too busy playing music at the time, and now, over 50 years later, I'm still in my gap year....
I have been to a number of universities, but only to lecture and not to be taught. I have even delivered the IMech E annual lecture on Engineering Excellence, although I am neither a member or have a degree.
My wife, on the other hand, trained as a nurse at Westminster and later got both a degree and PHD.
I have only had a 'real' job for 6 months (designing heat exchangers!) between having my own company servicing the music industry and then enjoying my 'hobby' of motorsport for the past 45 years.
My one take away from this is: if you enjoy what you are doing and have a passion for it, do it.
You can learn on the job and the order you do things in is not set in stone.
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Just been reflecting upon this, and true friends (not acquaintances) who have been the most successful in different ways. All of them have been truly exceptional in their success, and all in very different ways.
The most famous person I know (not celebrity) got a top degree at a top university …but started his own business and brand a couple of years later, and so his career didn't require the degree.
The other most famous person I know (celebrity) was spotted in the crowds at the Clothes Show Live whilst they were still at school and became a very successful model.
The most intelligent person I know left school at 16 and got a job as a pair of hands in a IT team. His knowledge and understanding of technology (and any other topic!) is other worldly.
The most senior person I know (as a true friend rather than only through work) in a corporate setting left school with the equivalent of A levels and got an apprenticeship with an accountancy firm.
The most wealthy person I know left school at 16 without any qualifications, and started digging holes because that’s all you could do at 16 without GCSEs. A couple of years later he started paying others to dig holes.
The most happy person I know left school at 16 and regards themself as thick but is far from it. They’re very skilled, passionate about work, lives in a lovely house in a beautiful place with a wonderful family.
The person who got their childhood-dream job, was very very bright, studied medicine at a top university and realised their dream of become a GP. Tragically they lost their battle with cancer a couple of years later.
From that I conclude that degrees are critical when their dream job is only possible with that degrees. For everyone else degrees may be part of the story but not even slightly important in that story.
The most famous person I know (not celebrity) got a top degree at a top university …but started his own business and brand a couple of years later, and so his career didn't require the degree.
The other most famous person I know (celebrity) was spotted in the crowds at the Clothes Show Live whilst they were still at school and became a very successful model.
The most intelligent person I know left school at 16 and got a job as a pair of hands in a IT team. His knowledge and understanding of technology (and any other topic!) is other worldly.
The most senior person I know (as a true friend rather than only through work) in a corporate setting left school with the equivalent of A levels and got an apprenticeship with an accountancy firm.
The most wealthy person I know left school at 16 without any qualifications, and started digging holes because that’s all you could do at 16 without GCSEs. A couple of years later he started paying others to dig holes.
The most happy person I know left school at 16 and regards themself as thick but is far from it. They’re very skilled, passionate about work, lives in a lovely house in a beautiful place with a wonderful family.
The person who got their childhood-dream job, was very very bright, studied medicine at a top university and realised their dream of become a GP. Tragically they lost their battle with cancer a couple of years later.
From that I conclude that degrees are critical when their dream job is only possible with that degrees. For everyone else degrees may be part of the story but not even slightly important in that story.
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Darrell
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When it comes down to money my younger brother and sister both attended university but I didn’t.
We’re all roughly the same financially.
The differences being that they’ve probably got better pensions than me and didn’t have to knock their whatsits out on a building site at 16 years old.
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Thanks everyone for all the replies...when the family come over to Isle of Wight over Christmas...I'll get them all to read the comments...then he can think even harder about his future...we can all chip in....but it is decision...and as many have said here....Happiness is the most important part of Life
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I have seen exactly this when a company I was contracting for were having a hard time recruiting for a skills gap. When they showed me the advert for the job I burst out laughing. It had all sorts of references to the robotics, electrical and PLC on site , most of which were already being covered internally .
They change the wording and (eventually) filled all of the positions.........and fired me !
. That was always the plan , I do a fair bit of that in my line of work.
Both of my kids were put under a lot of pressure to go to Uni when at school...
Laddo went to college a did motorsport Engineering. He then went to do an apprenticeship with VAG whilst scrutineering and marshalling. After a number of years in the workshop he's now decided to work for himself towing cars on trailers - gets well paid and has control over what he does.
Lass did IT & Security at college, and then studied online herself for security exams during lockdown. Now earns half my salary in IT security and is chased weekly by potential employers. No one mentions a lack of degree.
I passed 9 "O" levels at 14, 4 A levels at 16, and found an employer to sponsor me through my degree (Electrical Engineering). These qualifications have never had an impact on my getting a job or not (apart from the first one). I used to employ grads in my former role at a large consultancy and can count on 1 hand the number of people who's degree added one iota to their employability - so much so that I was instrumental in bringing in their apprenticeship scheme. 13 years later this apprentice cohort far outstrip their graduate peers.
There are some roles that require a degree-level education, and that's fine. However we place far too much weight to a "degree" when it likely has little impact in the majority of careers
Laddo went to college a did motorsport Engineering. He then went to do an apprenticeship with VAG whilst scrutineering and marshalling. After a number of years in the workshop he's now decided to work for himself towing cars on trailers - gets well paid and has control over what he does.
Lass did IT & Security at college, and then studied online herself for security exams during lockdown. Now earns half my salary in IT security and is chased weekly by potential employers. No one mentions a lack of degree.
I passed 9 "O" levels at 14, 4 A levels at 16, and found an employer to sponsor me through my degree (Electrical Engineering). These qualifications have never had an impact on my getting a job or not (apart from the first one). I used to employ grads in my former role at a large consultancy and can count on 1 hand the number of people who's degree added one iota to their employability - so much so that I was instrumental in bringing in their apprenticeship scheme. 13 years later this apprentice cohort far outstrip their graduate peers.
There are some roles that require a degree-level education, and that's fine. However we place far too much weight to a "degree" when it likely has little impact in the majority of careers
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Friend of my wife had a geography degree but decided she want to do accounting, The degree gave her an exemption from the first part of the acconting exams... But she struggled as she hadnt started the accounting course from the beginning so missed out on some of the basic/early teaching. My wife who taught herself accounting by doing "home schooling" by reading all the study manuals lent the friend the first year books to enable her to understand the principles. The final accountancy exams( I think it was nine exams in one week and if you failed one all nine had to be resat next time not just the one you failed!) were hard but the qualification is higher than a degree and harder to get.
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If I had been asked the question 60 years ago, I would have answered that of course it is worthwhile, as a degree automatically put you in the top percentile of the population and gave you a ticket to enter the race.
Today, however, after Bliars "degree in every household" which has devalued not only degrees, but other levels of qualifications, I would answer that a year out travelling and then your chosen career path is probably the sensible choice
Today, however, after Bliars "degree in every household" which has devalued not only degrees, but other levels of qualifications, I would answer that a year out travelling and then your chosen career path is probably the sensible choice
MikeInWimbledon
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There's more to University than signing up.
The BBC did a piece on Clive Anderson this morning. It reminded me of the people who went through Cambridge with him in the late 70's.
Stephen Fry: obsessive workaholic, has done quite well.
Emma Thompson: ditto
Hugh Laurie: complete waste of space on his degree course: scraped a dodgy third in social anthropology. Went to Uni to row and act. Was the highest paid TV actor in the States for a few years.
No names but... one guy who died early of alcohol, another who went gaga, and lots of other clever young woman who decided there were other better things to do in life - including that tall bloke with funny coloured jackets who does train travelogues.
Uni is no panacea, but it does give you skills, experiences, exposure to a world beyond your home, and then a ticket that you can wave at people as you make your way on from there.
The BBC did a piece on Clive Anderson this morning. It reminded me of the people who went through Cambridge with him in the late 70's.
Stephen Fry: obsessive workaholic, has done quite well.
Emma Thompson: ditto
Hugh Laurie: complete waste of space on his degree course: scraped a dodgy third in social anthropology. Went to Uni to row and act. Was the highest paid TV actor in the States for a few years.
No names but... one guy who died early of alcohol, another who went gaga, and lots of other clever young woman who decided there were other better things to do in life - including that tall bloke with funny coloured jackets who does train travelogues.
Uni is no panacea, but it does give you skills, experiences, exposure to a world beyond your home, and then a ticket that you can wave at people as you make your way on from there.
Dickie Fix
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I didn’t go to uni, but back in the late 60’s, only a very few in my school did. Instead, I joined the military and did an apprenticeship. 10 years years on and an ONC/HNC at the local tech college on day release gave me the qualifications to apply for a commission as an engineer officer. This would not be possible today as you need a relevant degree in a STEM subject to be accepted.
Our daughter did a BA in history and then spent a year in Japan teaching English as part of the JET programme. She came home, completed her QTS and now after 20 years is a deputy head.
Our son did a Masters in electronics and software. However, by his own admission, he didn’t really enjoy life at uni and the only meaningful thing he gained from it all was the certificate at the end. In the 15 years since, he’s worked in the defence, medical and financial sectors, all in jobs that required at least a degree, and is currently a CTO of a successful fintech startup.
He has personally recruited all his software team and makes a point of not looking at anyone’s cv until they have successfully completed a coding exercise (to weed out those who think they can code, but can’t). He doesn’t care if they have a degree or not or even much experience, as long as they can do the exercise, are keen and would be a good fit in the team. With this approach he now has a young team of enthusiastic, dedicated and talented engineers who appreciate that they have been given their start on the career ladder not by their qualifications, but by their abilities.
Our daughter did a BA in history and then spent a year in Japan teaching English as part of the JET programme. She came home, completed her QTS and now after 20 years is a deputy head.
Our son did a Masters in electronics and software. However, by his own admission, he didn’t really enjoy life at uni and the only meaningful thing he gained from it all was the certificate at the end. In the 15 years since, he’s worked in the defence, medical and financial sectors, all in jobs that required at least a degree, and is currently a CTO of a successful fintech startup.
He has personally recruited all his software team and makes a point of not looking at anyone’s cv until they have successfully completed a coding exercise (to weed out those who think they can code, but can’t). He doesn’t care if they have a degree or not or even much experience, as long as they can do the exercise, are keen and would be a good fit in the team. With this approach he now has a young team of enthusiastic, dedicated and talented engineers who appreciate that they have been given their start on the career ladder not by their qualifications, but by their abilities.
Darrell
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We’ve got a chap in our family who’s as thick as a whale omelette but went to a posh school (Millfield I think) on a rugby scholarship and then went to Uni again due to his rugby prowess.
He’s a scaffolder. He’s on the film sets at Elstree but he’s still a scaffy.
Having had a recent encounter with the NHS which involved inability to contact local GP due to staff shortages, dialing 111 & being told an ambulance would be sent. Receiving a call from ambulance service to be told that an ambulance wouldn’t be sent & to go to a minor injuries unit.
Phoning the nearest minor injuries unit to be told that as the problem wasn’t an “injury” to call 111 or GP.
111 said that an ambulance would be sent but we said that ambulance service had refused to attend as the problem wasn’t life threatening.
Eventually 111 got a ”clinician” to speak to us & recommended a visit to A&E.
At the A&E check in desk a young lady behind us was talking to a nurse saying that she wanted to return to nurse training but couldn’t afford to return to uni to get her qualifications.
In our ridiculously understaffed NHS why are we not providing free training for nurses (not necessarily degrees) & doctors with a 5 or 10 year tie in to the NHS?
As an aside I don’t believe that throwing more & more money at organisations such as the NHS without a full review & reorganisation of how that organisation is using their funds. My father was a nurse in mental health and was retired early about 30 years ago due to closing of mental health units & moving to “care in the community” (which hasn’t been particularly successful). Before his retirement he spoke of phenomenal waste which was growing year on year.
In my opinion the current NHS system is broken with no overriding joined up thinking.
Phoning the nearest minor injuries unit to be told that as the problem wasn’t an “injury” to call 111 or GP.
111 said that an ambulance would be sent but we said that ambulance service had refused to attend as the problem wasn’t life threatening.
Eventually 111 got a ”clinician” to speak to us & recommended a visit to A&E.
At the A&E check in desk a young lady behind us was talking to a nurse saying that she wanted to return to nurse training but couldn’t afford to return to uni to get her qualifications.
In our ridiculously understaffed NHS why are we not providing free training for nurses (not necessarily degrees) & doctors with a 5 or 10 year tie in to the NHS?
As an aside I don’t believe that throwing more & more money at organisations such as the NHS without a full review & reorganisation of how that organisation is using their funds. My father was a nurse in mental health and was retired early about 30 years ago due to closing of mental health units & moving to “care in the community” (which hasn’t been particularly successful). Before his retirement he spoke of phenomenal waste which was growing year on year.
In my opinion the current NHS system is broken with no overriding joined up thinking.
