Joining a dual carriageway or motorway

Discussion in 'Driving/Incidents/Roadrage' started by ItalianTuneUp, Sep 17, 2015.

  1. Dryce

    Dryce MB Club Veteran

    Messages:
    6,700
    Joined:
    May 17, 2006
    Car:
    ..
    Courtesy in these sorts of circumstances also means not impeding the other drivers around you or disrupting traffic flow.

    However that gets into the area of another chestnut - merging lanes at road works. Very few people seem to understand the issue is about flow and not about space.
     
    2 people like this.
  2. knighterrant

    knighterrant Hardcore MB Enthusiast

    Messages:
    3,190
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2012
    Location:
    Here
    Car:
    Yes
    Changing speed or changing lanes are two of the most dangerous actions on motorways or multi-lane dual carriageways. So both should be avoided as much as reasonably possible.

    When driving in lane 1 on a busy road, surely it's best to leave a big gap to the vehicle in front; this makes it easier to see what's going on and provides more opportunity to stop safely if the vehicle in front brakes. So when approaching an entry slip road there shouldn't be the need to slow down to let someone filter in because the gap will be easily big enough. If the road is fairly quiet, there will be plenty space in front and behind to filter in, so again no need to adjust your speed. I HATE it when I'm entering a motorway and adjust my speed to filter in behind a car only to find the "courteous" driver has slowed to let me in in front of him. This makes me slow down even more to achieve my aim, so he slows further to let me out ... Grrr. Meanwhile the line of vehicles behind him have also had to slow down far more than would otherwise have been the case if he'd maintained his speed and let me enter the correct way.

    The annoying "courteous" driver who pulls out to lane 2 at 20 mph less than the traffic in that lane has already been mentioned. He may not do it so suddenly as to cause drivers to brake sharply, but it is bloody annoying when it's totally unnecessary. It gets even more annoying when the car that's entered from the slip road drives at the same speed as Mr Courteous and they end up crawling along side by side for the next couple of miles!

    I do wish that the "courteous" drivers could extend their courtesy to everyone and not just those in their forward vision. It's much the same with the "courteous" driver who stops to let someone out from a side road when there's only one car behind them! Don't these people have mirrors?

    Back to the slip road issue, I've had two drivers get very angry with me for not slowing down or stopping to let them enter at the speed and position they want. The first was on a two lane section of the A1 late on a summer evening when it was still light and there was very little traffic. I had the cruise set to 70 and was happily sat in the inside lane. As we approached an entry slip road a BMW came from behind in lane 2 at about 80. There were no other cars in sight on the A1. I saw a VW Scirocco in the slip road and thought it had plenty time to accelerate out in front of me or ease off a tad and merge in behind. I couldn't move over to the outside lane without, at best, impeding the progress of the BMW. The VW driver decided that it was my duty to brake and let them in. I didn't - instead I stayed on cruise at the same speed. The VW driver had the brake in the end to avoid running in to me, whilst at the same time blasting her horn and shaking her fist (yup, no hands left for the steering wheel!) Eventually she caught up and with the BMW long gone was able to pull into lane 2 next to me. Again she remonstrated with me, her face bright red and no for a lip reading expert to understand every second word. All this at 70 mph! I just smiled and looked where I was going.

    The second incident was at a much lower speed in fact it was stop start heavy traffic during rush hour on a dual carriageway down to one lane for roadworks. I had just merged into the main roads traffic from the slip road when the Vauxhall that was behind me on the slip road accelerated to my left and tried to use the last few feet of the slip to push in front of me. "Merge in turn" came to my mind, so I didn't let him in. He got closer and closer to my passenger door as the slip road ran out. He blasted his horn but I continued to look ahead and maintained the gap to the car in front. The traffic stopped and started a few times before he finally gave up (aka ran out of room on the slip road) and was let in behind me. He stayed there with his hand pressed to the horn. I shrugged and raised both hands in the "what?" pose, but for some reason this didn't stop is horn working. Eventually we cleared the roadworks and each went our separate ways.
     
  3. gIzzE

    gIzzE MB Club Veteran

    Messages:
    5,637
    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2004
    Location:
    Norfolk, UK
    Car:
    530d Touring + ML270 Inspiration
    I read the first two paragraphs.

    I agree. And this is how it normally works, but often you can see people panicking and slowing down and getting level with you, in this instance just speed up a bit so they can slip in behind, or if you have someone on your backside lift off the gas and let them in.

    It is about reading the situation around you.


    One of the main problems is ****wits who try and join at 45mph.
     
  4. cb1965

    cb1965 Banned

    Messages:
    1,266
    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2013
    Car:
    N/A
    For the love of God is this thread still dragging on?

    If everyone just paid attention on the road, got off their high horse and just accepted that some people are not as awesome as they are this thread and many other like it wouldn't exist!

    This marque seems to attract a certain type of person... with the recent 45 minute stand off video under the bridge... it's no accident that both drivers were in Mercs!
     
  5. Dryce

    Dryce MB Club Veteran

    Messages:
    6,700
    Joined:
    May 17, 2006
    Car:
    ..
    And so you waited almost two days after the last post to it then and added your little bit of unecessary angst to drag it on some more.

    :rolleyes:
     
  6. zipdip

    zipdip Hardcore MB Enthusiast

    Messages:
    2,424
    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2015
    Location:
    Essex
    Car:
    s320
    Well you do get more of this move over I am joining the road regardless,it all stems from people aiming cars instead of driving with care and consideration ,most experienced drivers as they come down the slip pick a gap and join at the right speed with no problems,but some are just plain scared to be joining the big bad motorway and so try to creep on at around 40mph causing havoc,the other thing that is causing problems is people not indicating and this stems from the driving instructors teaching pupils that they do not have to indicate unless somebody is there,which to many means if you are two car lengths behind them in the outside lane you do not have to indicate,the weird thing is if they have a accident a witness will say that car did not indicate,I indicate at 2am coming down a slip to a motorway even though there are no headlights,it costs nothing to indicate,maybe somebody is running with no lights,but it is all part of the crazy game called driving today.
     
  7. cb1965

    cb1965 Banned

    Messages:
    1,266
    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2013
    Car:
    N/A
    Yep and I can spell unnecessary :thumb:
     
  8. Pontoneer

    Pontoneer MB Club Veteran

    Messages:
    12,420
    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2002
    Location:
    Ayrshire
    Car:
    '93 190E 2.3LE W201 ; '93 300SL-24 R129
    Actually , if coming down a slip road which leads only onto a motorway ( or wherever ) there is no need to give a signal : it is patently obvious where you are going since there is no possibility of you going anywhere else .

    In advanced driving , the teaching is to always look and CONSIDER the use of signals , rather than doing it robotically , which tends to lead to mindless , thoughtless driving with poor observation and ultimately unawareness of others .

    By eliminating unnecessary actions , such as signals which are not needed , or multiple gearchanges on the approach to a hazard when only one will suffice , the drive becomes smoother and more efficient .

    There is also a misconception that throwing on a signal , as if to say 'I'm coming out' confers some sort of authority which it does not .

    Much as a signal adds nothing to a vehicle coming down a slip road and obviously joining the carriageway , signals are very seldom needed for changing lanes on multi lane roads : only two possibilities exist - either the intended manoeuvre is safe and won't interfere with other road users , therefore no signal required ; or the intended manoeuvre is not safe or will interfere with another road user , therefore the lane change isn't on and must wait until it is . Putting on a signal will not turn an unsafe manoeuvre into a safe one .

    One of my other pet hates is people who trafficate left after an overtake , this is quite simply wrong as you are supposed to move back over to the left after overtaking and no need to signal this intention , people who do this on an advanced test will be marked down for it . Of course , unusual circumstances may bring exceptions , hence I said 'very seldom' , but with proper observation and planning you should hardly ever need to signal lane changes on multi lane roads .

    Signalling all the time is generally taught to novices until they develop the skill and experience to be able to determine when and when not to signal .
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2015
    Moleshome likes this.
  9. merc85

    merc85 MB Club Veteran

    Messages:
    7,407
    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2013
    Location:
    Harwich
    Car:
    s211 e55k
    fluent in latin to lol:D
     
  10. Pontoneer

    Pontoneer MB Club Veteran

    Messages:
    12,420
    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2002
    Location:
    Ayrshire
    Car:
    '93 190E 2.3LE W201 ; '93 300SL-24 R129
    Ita vero
     
  11. Dryce

    Dryce MB Club Veteran

    Messages:
    6,700
    Joined:
    May 17, 2006
    Car:
    ..
    I always signal - it's to reinforce the information being made available to anybody that sees it - that I intend to manouevre.

    Not every driver approaching on the main road is going to be aware of the slip road - signalling might just get the attention of the dozy ones and add that extra measure of safety.

    I do this in some circumstances - I will signal to pull into a gap when overtaking and working up a traffic queue to indicate that I am about to make use of that gap rather than progress further up the queue.


    I'm not fully enamoured of the IAM on some of this stuff. The assumption that other road users don't need to be informed (or information reinforced) is something that goes against my motorcycle survival instincts that served me rather well.

    Also the concept of signals being directed to road users you are aware of also goes against my instincts as defensively I would assume there is always the risk that any flaw in my situational awareness would mean there may be other road users in who I am not aware of.

    Moreover as in the slip road example I gave - I can never assume that other road users are as aware of the hazards that they are approaching or my presence as I would like - so signalling may make them more aware and offers me an additional level of protection.

    My views are based on being a motorcyclist for 20 years before getting my car licence.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2015
  12. E55BOF

    E55BOF MB Club Veteran

    Messages:
    5,631
    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2013
    Location:
    South Bucks
    Car:
    E63, SLK55, ML320, FJR1300, Caponord

    I've long thought that bikers' situational awareness in general is far superior to that of the average driver. Riding has certainly made me much more aware of what's going on around me than I was when I only drove cars.

    Mostly on motorways and dual carriageways, I don't always signal when my manoeuvre will not affect another vehicle, but to do this safely depends on knowing whether there is another vehicle there to be affected; situational awareness again. Mind you, I'm institutionalised to Mirror-Signal-Maneouvre as my default action; safety first.
     
  13. Pontoneer

    Pontoneer MB Club Veteran

    Messages:
    12,420
    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2002
    Location:
    Ayrshire
    Car:
    '93 190E 2.3LE W201 ; '93 300SL-24 R129
    having also driven bikes in the dark , distant past , I'd be the first to agree that , because they are at the same time that much more vulnerable and that much less visible than other road users , bikers have , in order to survive , be that much more aware of what is going on around them .

    I'd also be quick to agree that I don't always agree with everything the IAM teach or preach , like many others I find them to be quite pedantic and , at times , inflexible . I also don't see them as the ultimate arbiters of what is and isn't correct in Advanced Driving - in that field the police training colleges very much lead the way , even though some aspects of police advanced driving isn't always applicable to civilians , and I sometimes feel that some elements which have filtered through to civilian advanced driving ( such as the imperative emphasis on always making progress ) perhaps oughtn't to have ...

    However , one thing I do agree with , and this comes heavily down to improving situational awareness , is use of 'the system' where certain things have to be done , or at least considered , in a certain order . The whole point of this is to raise driving to a more conscious level , rather than allowing it to be an unconscious subroutine as many drivers do after they have passed their basic DVSA driving test and feel that is all that is required of them .

    Rather than just some vague awareness that there is a turn or lane change to , say , the right and throwing on a signal before wandering in that direction , the advanced driver is taught to assess the situation , determine what other road users are present and might or might not be affected by the intended action , whether that action is safe or even possible in the first place and therefore whether it is necessary to tell some one about your plans , determine the correct course or road position , the correct speed of approach , the most appropriate gear to be in , having done all that , is it still safe , has anything changed , do we now need to give a signal even though we didn't a few moments ago , or do we need to emphasise or supplement one already given , and if safe to proceed and with what degree of acceleration ( if any ) . That sounds a mouthful , and it is if giving commentary , but really it can easily be perfected and becomes second nature . With the 'new' version of the system one is taking and giving information all the time ( as required ) ; that is always taking information , and giving it as required ; although I still like the structure of the 'old' six feature system which called for specific actions at specific times , the new one does emphasise that you can never be too aware of what is going on around you .

    Gathering information , or situational awareness , should be a continuous process whenever you are in charge of a vehicle ( in some ways easier on a bile as you are 'out there' rather than enclosed in a tin box and isolated from the world , but a full face helmet does get in the way sometimes ) and you should always be looking and listening for other road users . I've enjoyed my summer in the SL , with the roof down on almost every dry weather journey , and it is amazing just how much having the additional sense of hearing everything going on around you in an open car makes awareness so much greater ! However , even driving a van or a truck with cabin noise and much less rearward visibility ( although they often have the advantage of an elevated driving position ) with properly structured scanning of the road situation , you should still be aware of others and able to plan accordingly .

    Observation isn't just rearwards ,it is ahead , far ahead , and all around , leading to planning , planning and more planning . Yes , I'm only human and I might miss something , but I'd like to think that is very seldom and I certainly don't often get horns blown at me , so I don't think I miss too much .

    While there are many occasions I choose not to signal ( and this is much of the time on motorways or DCW's ) there are other times when I will give more signals than others : an example of this which comes up semi-regularly is when approaching my home - my house is situated on the A737 , which is a busy A road and if approached form the West , is on the left immediately after a minor road with little visibility in or out , if I'm nearing my house with following traffic , I generally will start to slow quite early from the 60 mph I might have been doing , even though I might have following traffic , I won't wish to signal left in case something appears in the mouth of the junction just before my house , so I quite often lightly apply the brakes to bring the lights on and also give the hand signal for 'I intend to slow down' , before finally trafficating left once I can see into the junction and it is obvious I am not turning left there . Another fairly regular one is that , on turning right across a dual carriageway to enter my place of work , if I am being followed I will quite often supplement a right turn signal with a hand signal to emphasise that I am actually turning right and not merely overtaking slower traffic in the left lane .

    Regardless of the above , some drives do seem to drive around with their eyes shut and manage to miss things that should be blatantly obvious - while on a bile it might be a matter of life and death , and with a greater chance of getting hit due to your smaller profile , therefore there is an argument for lowering your standard of driving back to the 'L driver' regime of signalling all the time , I choose to maintain my vigilance and always assume every other driver is an idiot and is about to do the worst possible thing , whatever that might be .
     
  14. DrFeelgood

    DrFeelgood MB Club Veteran

    Messages:
    8,065
    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2005
    Car:
    BMW
    Most of us must have completed this manoeuvre hundreds, if not thousands, of times without giving it a thought.

    If you find this difficult then, maybe, motorway travel isn't for you.
     
  15. Pontoneer

    Pontoneer MB Club Veteran

    Messages:
    12,420
    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2002
    Location:
    Ayrshire
    Car:
    '93 190E 2.3LE W201 ; '93 300SL-24 R129
    The problem is that so many DON'T give it , or many other aspects of driving , any thought : they are the ones who get into conflict with other road users and cause crashes , or worse !
     
    1 person likes this.
  16. DrFeelgood

    DrFeelgood MB Club Veteran

    Messages:
    8,065
    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2005
    Car:
    BMW
    Sure, but I drive through or past so many hundreds of slip roads and see no problems whatsoever.

    Where does all this angst about joining motorways come from?

    Nearly 2000 people have viewed this thread, I'd be surprised if many more than than that had trouble with junctions in the UK.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2015
    1 person likes this.
  17. Pontoneer

    Pontoneer MB Club Veteran

    Messages:
    12,420
    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2002
    Location:
    Ayrshire
    Car:
    '93 190E 2.3LE W201 ; '93 300SL-24 R129
    Most of us don't 'have trouble' with them , but I certainly see people who just haven't a clue about merging safely with other traffic almost on a daily basis .
     
  18. DrFeelgood

    DrFeelgood MB Club Veteran

    Messages:
    8,065
    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2005
    Car:
    BMW
    Is that because you are more sensitive to this as a result of your additional training?
     
  19. Pontoneer

    Pontoneer MB Club Veteran

    Messages:
    12,420
    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2002
    Location:
    Ayrshire
    Car:
    '93 190E 2.3LE W201 ; '93 300SL-24 R129
    I don't think so :dk:

    However , one can't help but notice when people barge into traffic , forcing others to brake , or fail to merge smoothly into available gaps and end up coming to a halt near the end of the slip roads , or worst of all , when they bring both the slip road and the nearside lane to a complete stop due to their incompetency - I see all of the foregoing all too regularly , without being involved in them myself .
     
    1 person likes this.
  20. DrFeelgood

    DrFeelgood MB Club Veteran

    Messages:
    8,065
    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2005
    Car:
    BMW
    Standards must be very poor north of the border, I don't see much of this at all.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.