Man charged with murder and rape

[pammy]

Pammy / BonzoDog - you have misread what I was trying to say.

Les

No Les - you didn't write it very well

Either way - I still find it distasteful -putting a financial cost on what a person is worth.

The scum that commit such atrocities are sadly still people. There have been far too many cases where a person has been convicted, executed and then found to be not guilty. I can't begin to imagine how a family and the friends of victims of these crimes feel or begin to cope with their lives, but I believe that by executing the perpetrator you are putting yourself at the scum's level.

How do you measure mental illness if you're going to attribute a financial cost and value to an individual? I can't believe that anyone that can do such things is actually mentally sound - although I know the professionals in this arena do provide evidence to the state of their mental health - so one can only treat their evidence as correct - but then again how many times has expert witness evidence been discredited after the event?

There is no simple solution to this type of case. There will never be agreement on the death penalty. The only thing that is sure is that everybody is equally appalled, sickened and saddened that things can happen in our society.

 

[et0609]

As far as im concerned, someone like that serves no purpose in life and contributes nothing but to destroy peoples lives. Putting him in prison drains the taxpayers money. He will be fed, clothed, paid to clean the bogs, he will get no end of support to help him come to terms with his crime and the people who pay for all this are the taxpayers including the victims family. The electric chair and a cremation costs a fraction of what it will cost to keep him banged up. Thats what gets my vote.

 

[mark.t]

Truly he was the peoples vigilante and justice dealer.

This is the sort of thing that disgusts me when people lionise those who take justice into their own hands. Just like those who went out and beat up a paediatrician. Quoted at the time:- 'That paedo scum got what they deserved.'

see that's what I mean leave it to the professional ....he don't **** up like the baying mob

we all want juctice for these little ones and alike ....sit back and think about what you want to happen to the scum and then sit back and think what would and could happen to the scum .....he don't mind getting his hands dirty and he's got the power now.....

 

[BIG Sean]

I'm firmly in favour of capital punishment, preferably by some reasonably humane method like lethal injection. To some extent it's a moral thing. Some crimes are such that the perpertrator just forfeits his right to life, full stop. But there's also a practical angle. For example, in the case of Ian Huntley, there is absolutely no chance that he'll ever be released. He'll have to be protected from the other inmates for the rest of his life, so what's the point of keeping this evil individual alive. Tose two low-lifes who mugged and murdered that London solicitor a few months ago would also be good candidates for the needle. Instead they got put away for about 17 years. They'll emerge, still relatively young men, with an even worse attitude than they went in with and will almost certainly take up where they left off.

IMHO the law of the jungle should prevail - survival of the fittest - leave him with the 'reggie kray/old school etc' types - see how far they get ...... see my previous post re leaving them alone without protection/solitary------------------- lets see how the poor little 'see you next tuesday' gets on being bu66erred???? - you just know it won't happen - BUT it should!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Flasheart]

see that's what I mean leave it to the professional ....he don't **** up like the baying mob

we all want juctice for these little ones and alike ....sit back and think about what you want to happen to the scum and then sit back and think what would and could happen to the scum .....he don't mind getting his hands dirty and he's got the power now.....

I am sorry but i find the whole endorsement of vigilante justice no matter who it is perpetrated by utterly abhorrent. I see such activity in my daily life and it fills me with disgust. In a civilised world we can not do this or allow this to happen. If we allow such creatures as you describe to kill sex offenders, do we chastise him for killing someone who looked at him the wrong way at breakfast? We do have a justice system for sex offenders, murderers, rapists, theives, traffic offenders. What you describe comes straight from the right wing fascist way of thinking.

And now moving on to other points.......

As for those who advocate having people killed to save the public money in their incarceration, well lets not stop there. What about the thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people who cost the country money and don't contribute. What about the homeless, those on benefit what ever sort. they are costing the country billions a year and contribute nothing. Lets just round them up and have them shot. Its a slippery slope once you start down that line of thinking and for me this all goes back 70 years to germany.

Yes as a society we have the right to seek justice, yes we have the right to protect people and property from others actions, but no we do not have the right to take anothers life as a civilised society, whether this be as a state or as it seems is wanted by the members of this forum a vigilante mob operating in prison. I can't wait for someone to trot out the Kray brothers and say...'but they only hurt their own.'

I generally find those that say lets take life have never had to do it themselves...... maybe if they did then they would have a different opinion. Its not big and it certainly isn't clever, no matter what your bar room politics and bravado say.

 

[Flasheart]

IMHO the law of the jungle should prevail - survival of the fittest - leave him with the 'reggie kray/old school etc' types - see how far they get ...... see my previous post re leaving them alone without protection/solitary------------------- lets see how the poor little 'see you next tuesday' gets on being bu66erred???? - you just know it won't happen - BUT it should!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why not just clear the isle of wight, close down all the prisons and just ship all the prisoners off there? they can then fight and kill each other. Society has to protect all the people all the time.

Yes society has fallen short in its obligation to those who have fallen foul of a crime. But there are pro-active things that can be done as opposed to retro-active, that don't include murder. Will having someone killed in prison by a Bronson/Kray actually prevent something happening? No of course it won't. But such cries are the bully boy of the playground tactics.

I for one find it abhorrent and disgusting and wish to dissassociate myself from such right wing fascist sentiments. They are the demands of the morally weak and inept who can see no further than the ends of their fists.

 

[miro]

Why not just clear the isle of wight, close down all the prisons and just ship all the prisoners off there? they can then fight and kill each other. Society has to protect all the people all the time.

Yes society has fallen short in its obligation to those who have fallen foul of a crime. But there are pro-active things that can be done as opposed to retro-active, that don't include murder. Will having someone killed in prison by a Bronson/Kray actually prevent something happening? No of course it won't. But such cries are the bully boy of the playground tactics.

I for one find it abhorrent and disgusting and wish to dissassociate myself from such right wing fascist sentiments. They are the demands of the morally weak and inept who can see no further than the ends of their fists.

Whilst one is pursuant of a dumping ground I hear that Australia still has space for more.

 

[MainMan]

The scum that commit such atrocities are sadly still people. There have been far too many cases where a person has been convicted, executed and then found to be not guilty.

That's true - even one case is too many - but justice is never going to be perfect, like everything else. It's certainly biased very heavily in favour of the defendant as anyone who's done jury service knows. The phrase "beyond reasonable doubt" is often very hard to satisfy for 12 people and even though you know the verdict ought to be guilty people often get off. This is especially true in rape cases where the conviction rate is 5%, yet you know the DPP doesn't bring a prosecution unless it's pretty sure the guy's guilty - and they have a much better knowledge of the defendant's background than the jury have.

I remember John McVicar - one time public enemy number one - complaining in the 60s that every time he got arrested the police fabricated evidence against him. He went on to say that he was guilty of every offence he was charged with but it just annoyed him that the police had to do this to make sure he was convicted. I don't think the police do this kind of thing much any more, and I have worked for the police. Most of the people who've had their conviction quashed in recent years have had this done because of technical reasons, which doesn't mean that they weren't guilty. The convictions was just ruled unsafe. The one judgement that stands out like a sore thumb is the woman jailed for killing her two children, which were actually cot deaths. This was an amazing failure of expert evidence and it's hard to know what to do about this. It's always going to spoil the case for capital punishment.

 

[glojo]

The one judgement that stands out like a sore thumb is the woman jailed for killing her two children, which were actually cot deaths. This was an amazing failure of expert evidence and it's hard to know what to do about this. It's always going to spoil the case for capital punishment.

I thought that ALL evidence was accepted by the appeal courts apart from the statistics put forward by the medical expert? I thought this expert stood by his opinion, but accepted he was incorrect with the one statistic? All the other evidence was accepted and the accused was released as the evidence was unsafe? My own personal example would be the retarded person that pleaded guilty to rape, his mother insisted he was innocent and after many, many years of protesting her sons innocence, scientific tests were carried out on the semen sample taken from the victim. The convicted person was sterile and the semen sample proofed beyond ANY doubt that he was not the attacker. I can still remember the news coverage of the day this person was released, oversized plimsolls that did not fit, no laces in them and I'm not sure if his mother died just before, or just after his release! What a tragic case, a simple mentally retarded person that made a confession to a crime he definitely did not commit. I have no knowledge of how the admission was obtained, or what corroboration the Police had that he was the rapist, but whatever methods they used it was wrong.

I take on-board what Pammy says about the appalling conviction numbers for rape, but is there an easy way of improving this embarrassing situation?

There are evil serial rapists that eventually get put before the courts yet they regularly get found not guilty. In a previous post I asked the question, "Should a jury be informed about the character of an accused, before they are asked to reach a verdict?" Having said about serial rapists, unfortunately there are also people that allege rape when they have not been raped. How easy is it for the Police to decide? How can an officer even ask this of someone in a distressed state? Not an easy task at all.

Is the conviction level of: 'Beyond a reasonable doubt' to high? Should the jury be allowed to use common sense?

Are our courts becoming an intellectual conflict between two very educated adversaries where the guilt or innocence is irrelevant. The cleverest advocate will usually win the day. What I hate with a passion is how these advocates enjoy this duel and get satisfaction out of winning!! They even pretend to believe their client was innocent which just makes things worse. How often does a defendant get charged with perjury when they plead not guilty, and it is proofed they are compulsive LIARS? If the prosecution witnesses tell a lie then they do indeed face some sort of disciplinary action or prosecution?

I for one find it abhorrent and disgusting and wish to disassociate myself from such right wing fascist sentiments. They are the demands of the morally weak and inept who can see no further than the ends of their fists.

Liberal sentiments have given us the society we deserve. No one but no one should condone the rule of the mob. Of course we shouldn't clear out the Isle of Wight, we should instead erect some nissen huts on Scapa Flow and invite all the most violent, obnoxious convicted criminals to take up residence This penal colony should have an open door, by this I mean those offenders who are beyond control, or are habitual repeat offenders should go in, but if they show remorse, or improve their behaviour by a significant degree then they can rejoin a more civilised regime.

All prisoners MUST have human rights, but should they have better rights than a hard working person on a minimum wage who never breaks our criminal laws? I say NO, no our prisoners should NOT have instant access to health spa's keep fit gymnasiums, libraries, dentists, specialist health care etc etc. Prison conditions should be basic with NO luxuries, but it should have differing levels of living conditions just to encourage reform.

We are told now that only the most serious of offenders go to prison, crime is down, arrests are down, yet prison numbers are at an all time high? Our prison are bursting at the seams! What is going on? Is the modern wishy, washy liberal prison regime acting as a deterrent? Why aren't prisoners complaining about conditions? Why are they happy with their lot? Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime I think we should substitute the word 'Soft' for tough. Soft on crime, soft on the causes of crime.

We get the society we deserve

John

 

[MainMan]

I thought that ALL evidence was accepted by the appeal courts apart from the statistics put forward by the medical expert? I thought this expert stood by his opinion, but accepted he was incorrect with the one statistic? All the other evidence was accepted and the accused was released as the evidence was unsafe? My own personal example would be the retarded person that pleaded guilty to rape, his mother insisted he was innocent and after many, many years of protesting her sons innocence, scientific tests were carried out on the semen sample taken from the victim.
John

Yes, the expert did stand by his opinion and was exonerated of all blame for the judgement eventually - I think he then retired. But the fact was that he stated that the statistical probability of these children both dying from natural causes (i.e.cot death) was one in several million. He hadn't taken into account various other factors, such as hereditary predisposition and localised infections. He just got it wrong, but he had no malicious intent.

The other case you allude to, I think, is the Leslie-Ann Moleseed case. This miscarriage would never happen nowadays because forensic DNA evidence has moved the game on to an incredible extent.

Another case that comes to mind is the murder of Gill Dando. The police eventually arrested the "local nutter who lives nearby" (Barry George), but the chances that he actually killed her seem very low - another miscarriage of justice.

The bottom line is that there are always going to be errors of judgement, no matter how many checks and balances are put in place, even though technology is gradually improving. The question is, how many guilty people does one want to acquit for each innocent person found guilty - and that's not an easy question. If one says that no innocent person can be found guilty (which is roughly what we have nowadays, despite high profile miscarriages) there are going to be a lot of criminals getting off scot free. I've served on many juries and I've seen these low-lifes laughing at the court because they know they're getting off - it's sickening.

 

[glojo]

Another case that comes to mind is the murder of Gill Dando. The police eventually arrested the "local nutter who lives nearby" (Barry George), but the chances that he actually killed her seem very low - another miscarriage of justice.

Hi MainMan,
I thought that person had his appeal turned down?

SPOT ON about the other case, Stefan Kiszko. It was indeed a very tragic set of circumstances and it is possible the Police had a lot to answer for?

If the Death Penalty had been allowed then this innocent person would have paid a huge price

It is crazy to say these miscarriages would not happen in this day and age, murders can be commited without leaving any type of DNA. Other evidence can be presented that gets an innocent person convicted.

When Stefan went home in 1992, his bedroom was just as he left it, his pyjamas on the bed and his beloved and immaculate Hillman Avenger still in the garage.
He died a year later, two days before Christmas, after collapsing at home from a heart condition. Charlotte rang me that day and told me the news.
She had long since forgiven me for my disbelief at her claims of her son's innocence and asked me to go to the house.
She made me tea and gave me home-made cakes, sometimes weeping and then cursing the police. She died around six months later, a broken woman.
In that same poignant letter from jail, a few weeks after his arrest, Stefan Kiszko also wrote: "I hope you had a nice Christmas. My mother spent hers crying her eyes out. We have not had such a nice time in the past, but things will get better."

Regards,
John

 

[mark.t]

I am sorry but i find the whole endorsement of vigilante justice no matter who it is perpetrated by utterly abhorrent. I see such activity in my daily life and it fills me with disgust. In a civilised world we can not do this or allow this to happen. If we allow such creatures as you describe to kill sex offenders, do we chastise him for killing someone who looked at him the wrong way at breakfast? We do have a justice system for sex offenders, murderers, rapists, theives, traffic offenders. What you describe comes straight from the right wing fascist way of thinking.

And now moving on to other points.......

As for those who advocate having people killed to save the public money in their incarceration, well lets not stop there. What about the thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people who cost the country money and don't contribute. What about the homeless, those on benefit what ever sort. they are costing the country billions a year and contribute nothing. Lets just round them up and have them shot. Its a slippery slope once you start down that line of thinking and for me this all goes back 70 years to germany.

Yes as a society we have the right to seek justice, yes we have the right to protect people and property from others actions, but no we do not have the right to take anothers life as a civilised society, whether this be as a state or as it seems is wanted by the members of this forum a vigilante mob operating in prison. I can't wait for someone to trot out the Kray brothers and say...'but they only hurt their own.'

I generally find those that say lets take life have never had to do it themselves...... maybe if they did then they would have a different opinion. Its not big and it certainly isn't clever, no matter what your bar room politics and bravado say.

a civilised world ....well you tell me where the civilised world is then .....in a civilised world do people shoot each other ...do they just walk past someone getting beat up in the street ...do you get arrested for tying to protect your own property ...do you get arrested for trying to protect your family ...do we allow the killing of children and give them a slap on the wrist ....do we have mothers who are threatened in front of there babies ....civilised eh ..... do we try to punish criminals or are our prison to full.......do we allow grandmothers to be beaten up for there pension money ...yes we do because we have not found a deterrent yet .. I personally do believe a good pasting in prison is by no means retribution for the hideous crimes these people have committed but I feel a lot better thinking that ,...instead of this image of a nonce sat in there cell with a laptop carpet and 3 square meals a day ...we don't live in a civilised world where's the justice there

 

[Flasheart]

a civilised world ....well you tell me where the civilised world is then .....in a civilised world do people shoot each other ...do they just walk past someone getting beat up in the street ...do you get arrested for tying to protect your own property ...do you get arrested for trying to protect your family ...do we allow the killing of children and give them a slap on the wrist ....do we have mothers who are threatened in front of there babies ....civilised eh ..... do we try to punish criminals or are our prison to full.......do we allow grandmothers to be beaten up for there pension money ...yes we do because we have not found a deterrent yet .. I personally do believe a good pasting in prison is by no means retribution for the hideous crimes these people have committed but I feel a lot better thinking that ,...instead of this image of a nonce sat in there cell with a laptop carpet and 3 square meals a day ...we don't live in a civilised world where's the justice there

Try living in a world then where your children can't go outside for fear of being blown up, there is open sewage running down your streets, you have a curfew from 2000-0600, you get mortared and rocketed, you have electricity for 3 hours a day, you can't keep food in a fridge so you have to go to the markets each day and run the risk of being blown up, you get picked up by the police for no reason except your perceived religion beaten, tortured and shot. Your children get kidnapped out of school and held to ransom that you can not pay.

You don't get arrested for defending your property so long as you stick with in the law, but then that isn't the vigilante way is it? We don't allow pensioners to be beaten up, as far as i can tell we still arrest, try and convict the guilty. None of the issues you raise are new or recent. For some people the deterrent doesn't work as they are the dis-enfranchised who society no longer cares about. But then these people have existed for a long time, after all transportation didn't stop people who were starving from stealing bread, so a deterrent is a worthless thing. Many gaol sentences are to sate the rabid anger of middle Britain who read the Daily Mail from the comfort of their semi-detached house, who want low cost labour to work for them, but then complain about the east europeans working in the service industry.

*deleted due to just throwing petrol on the flames..... it saddens me to discover people who are never content with what they have are filled with hate, jealousy and disgust of their fellow man*

 

[Gollom]

I have read your posts, then considered - and they have shifted my attitide somewhat*. You have obviously been exposed to life in areas that I can only ever read about - and some philosopher guy once said words to the effect that our views are coloured by the world in which we dwell.

*But surely what you talk about does not refer to situations like that which started this thread? We are talking about someone who appears to have chosen (note the careful use of words - he has not been convicted) to throw away some of the most sacred "rules" - the taking of life and the totally abhorrent abuse of a child. How can that ever be compared to what you speak so eloquently about? What purpose can ever be served by allowing someone like that to live? Your scenario seems to refer to a situation where the perpetuators have at least an ideology to use in defence - no matter how misguided we in the western world think it is. What this guy is accused of is surely nothing more than pure, pure evil? And on that basis, shouldn't that evil be removed? And no, despite what I first wrote in reaction to something that fills me with loathing, it should not be vigilante justice in the sense of which has been spoken. But termination of someone who has stepped so far outside of normal human bounds.

 

[glojo]

I think Flasheart is speaking from a world where they chop off hands for stealing, stone to death adulterers, hang people from cranes etc etc etc. All this is punishment handed out by the judiciary, the unofficial vigilante punishments do not make pleasant reading at all.

No matter how strict the punishment it will NEVER prevent crime. There are any number of convictions in the Middle East for theft. When I had the privilege of being in a few Middle Eastern countries, gold trinkets were left unattended on market stalls, but the odd one would still be stolen. China has capital punishment for most criminal offences but has it acted as deterrent? To me imprisonment is all about justice\fairness, letting victims know the courts will not tolerate certain acts. This government has allowed victims to have their say once a accused has been found guilty and I believe this input should carry far, far more weight than any mitigation.

The reason why we hear this silly lynch mob mentality is because justice is not seen to be done. The courts are letting down the victims. I am sure if we had less wishy washy, whinging, whining, liberal attitudes, then there might perhaps be less public outcry about soft sentencing. Years ago prisoners were forever complaining about conditions, strange how there complaints have been acted upon and now the innocent are doing all the complaining.

John

 

[MainMan]

No matter how strict the punishment it will NEVER prevent crime. There are any number of convictions in the Middle East for theft. When I had the privilege of being in a few Middle Eastern countries, gold trinkets were left unattended on market stalls, but the odd one would still be stolen.
John

Your experience seems to be different from mine. I spent several months living in Dubai and there seemed to be an almost complete absence of crime. People left their Mercs in the car park with the engine running to keep the a/c on. In the time I was there I read of only two crimes in the paper - a case of someone stealing from a shop (punished by removal of a hand) and a car-jacking (punished by removal of a leg). The thing about these draconian punishments is that they do seem to be an effective deterrent, so fortunately they're not inflicted very often. Contrast this with the UK where there's so much crime that the police don't even bother to record half of it and the penalty for burglary is, in most cases, a caution - and that's assuming that they get caught which is unlikely.

And Tony Blair wants to impose Western values on the Middle East!

 

[glojo]

Your experience seems to be different from mine.

Hi Mainman,
I would suggest a visit to the local prison in whatever country you visited. I agree with all your points, but theft does occur and just look what happened when the prison doors were opened in Iraq. The bilk of escaped prisoners were your average law breaker. When going abroad we tend to avoid certain areas, but it is in the places we either avoid, or are not encouraged to visit that we could actually see the real country. I'm sorry to be blunt but dishonesty is not just a western embarrassment.

Here is just one Middle Eastern countries figures
Country SAUDI ARABIAMinistry responsible Ministry of the InteriorHead of prison administration
(and title) (Major General) Ali Hussein Al-Harithy
Director General of PrisonsPrison population total
(including pre-trial detainees / remand prisoners) 28,612
at 2002 (United Nations 8th Survey) Prison population rate
(per 100,000 of national population) 132 based on an estimated national population of
21.7 million at mid-2002 (United Nations) Pre-trial detainees / remand prisoners
(percentage of prison population) 58.7%
(2002) Female prisoners
(percentage of prison population) 5.7%
(2002) Foreign prisoners
(percentage of prison population) 46.9%
(2002) Number of establishments / institutions 30
(2000 - prisons for adults) Recent prison population trend
(year, prison population total, prison population rate) 1998 23,088 (114)
2000 23,720 (110)
</STRONG>

Flasheart made reference to the evil kidnappings, murders, etc taking place in Iraq. Does anyone seriously believe that Iraqi people became criminals the day the West occupied there beautiful country? I will get slammed for saying this, BUT..... These criminals were there before the West arrived, they were simply hammered down and treated quite severely when caught. That was the deterrent, now they are faced with western ways and they are not working. Sorry to be blunt, but if you want figures for any other Middle Eastern country give me a shout.

Regards
John the tactless

 

[MainMan]

The trouble with statistics, Glojo, is that they can be very misleading. It would be interesting to see a breakdown of what these Saudis are in jail for. You need to bear in mind that in countries where there is zero tolerance to crime people tend to be jailed for a long time for offences that are generally punishable by fines in the UK. I haven't been to Saudi but I know that the crime rate in Dubai is near zero which is particularly surprising considering the mix of very wealthy and very poor. Those that are in jail tend to be there for visa violations, prostitution etc. So they are doing something right and maybe we could learn something from them.

On a slightly different, but linked, subject I was reading in the papers over the weekend about the recent spate of shootings in London. As usual there are a lot of vacuous words from the politicians and Blair predictably starts talking about new legislation. But the interesting thing was that absolutely nobody was brave enough to point out the fact that, in the UK, 90% of gun crime is committed by Afro-Caribbean males - who comprise less than 1% of the population. I've always though that the first step to solving a problem is defining what it is. If no one has the courage to do this, for fear of being accused of racism presumably, then it will never be solved. It'll just get worse.

 

[glojo]

Your experience seems to be different from mine. I spent several months living in Dubai and there seemed to be an almost complete absence of crime. People left their Mercs in the car park with the engine running to keep the a/c on. In the time I was there I read of only two crimes in the paper - a case of someone stealing from a shop (punished by removal of a hand) and a car-jacking (punished by removal of a leg). The thing about these draconian punishments is that they do seem to be an effective deterrent, so fortunately they're not inflicted very often. Contrast this with the UK where there's so much crime that the police don't even bother to record half of it and the penalty for burglary is, in most cases, a caution - and that's assuming that they get caught which is unlikely.

And Tony Blair wants to impose Western values on the Middle East!

Hi Mainman,
I should have posted the correct country for you. As I said previously I fully endorse your points and have had similar experiences. I am simply highlighting that crime exists, but like you quite correctly point out, there are huge detterants for misbehaving. Your amputaion of the leg gives a wholenew meaning to the saying 'Hop it'

Country UNITED ARAB EMIRATESMinistry responsible Ministry of InteriorPrison population total
(including pre-trial detainees / remand prisoners) 8,927
at 2004 (United Nations 9th Survey) Prison population rate
(per 100,000 of national population) 288 based on an estimated national population of
3.1 million at mid-2004 (United Nations) Pre-trial detainees / remand prisoners
(percentage of prison population) 46.7%
(2004) Female prisoners
(percentage of prison population) 11.4%
(of convicted prisoners, 2004) Juveniles / minors / young prisoners
incl. definition (percentage of prison population) 1.3%
(of convicted prisoners, 2004) Foreign prisoners
(percentage of prison population) 87.3%
(of convicted prisoners, 2004) Number of establishments / institutions 14
(2004 - 11 adult prisons, 3 juvenile prisons. If the juvenile prisons are on the same site as the adult prisons in separate sections then the number of establishments should be shown as 11.) Official capacity of prison system 5,250
(2004) Occupancy level (based on official capacity) 170.0%
(2004) Recent prison population trend
(year, prison population total, prison population rate) 1998 c.6,000 (c.250)
2003 8,827 (294)
</STRONG>

These numbers are very low, and then you should note the 'foreign' percentage. Unfortunately this is not broken down and we MUST not make any assumptions.

Regards,
John

 

[glojo]

I've always though that the first step to solving a problem is defining what it is. If no one has the courage to do this, for fear of being accused of racism presumably, then it will never be solved. It'll just get worse.

Again I totally agree with all your excellent points but sadly the messenger tends to get 'shot' (sorry about the choice of words)

We have had a similar problem with a demographic minority committing the great majority of crime.

It is always easier to blame 'The Government' rather than confront the real issues. The United Arab Emirates has one of the lowest crime rates in the World, but I still believe it has more to do with the fear of being caught and punished.

I wonder how many countries have segregation for differing types of prisoner and also what there views are on our attitudes to-wards a liberal reform type approach. I cannot say punishment as our Minister for Prisons dismisses that and insists our prisons are a place of reform, prisoners are not confined to be punished, they are to be reformed!!!

Pammy and others mention our appalling conviction rate for rape. I was reading a couple of weeks ago that in a number of countries if a woman alleges she has been raped then unless she produces independent witnesses, she herself will be charged with adultery, male rape is simply unheard of as a crime. Our prosecution rate might not be good, but yesterday I heard a spokesperson criticise our Police for simply not taking the word of a woman without having any type of co-operative evidence I personally would not want to be either the poor victim or indeed the officer taking the complaint and is there an easy way of improving prosecuting this very evil people?

Regards
John