Mercedes W114 250 Coupe - help!

[Bellow]

That's an exceptionally kind offer Bellow and very much appreciated, it feels such good quality I am certain that someone who is more capable than I can get it going, in which case the Petronix option becomes a real goer.

I'more than happy to give it a shot - only one concern.
Typically, a dizzy main shaft is removed by drawing upwards - after releasing a peened pin which secures the drive gear. Usually, this is because the cam is part of the shaft and larger than the bore diameter the shaft runs in.

Here though....

...I cannot see any drive gear - but there may well be a pin. My concern is with any pin, more specifically re-securing it (if it dropped into the engine I wouldn't want to think of the possible consequence).
Is there a pin (or identifiable retaining mechanism)? Or (and this would suffice, does it look possible to remove the (upper) plate(s) from above with the main shaft in situ?
If so - I can dismantle, clean, and reassemble. Otherwise the best (unless the pin can be risked) is a liberal dosing of LE UT and a bit of manipulation by hand until everything is as free as it needs to be - and that is easier accomplished than a trip to a post office.
Your thoughts?

 

[grober]

In answer to your question will that 1867A PETRONIX UNIT that fits the JFU6 231187001 Distributor mentioned earlier fit your PFUR 0231301004 distributor?
ANSWER= I don't know- the distributor numbers are bound to be different as those D jet distributors with the extra contact breakers in the base are a slightly different design - but if the JFU 6 fits the 6 cylinder M114 its highly likely the base plate the contact breakers mount on is the same.- an educated guess---- if they have the same contact breaker points that would confirm it. will try to find out a bit more on that score.

 

[grober]

I'more than happy to give it a shot - only one concern.
Typically, a dizzy main shaft is removed by drawing upwards - after releasing a peened pin which secures the drive gear. Usually, this is because the cam is part of the shaft and larger than the bore diameter the shaft runs in.

Here though....

...I cannot see any drive gear - but there may well be a pin. My concern is with any pin, more specifically re-securing it (if it dropped into the engine I wouldn't want to think of the possible consequence).
Is there a pin (or identifiable retaining mechanism)? Or (and this would suffice, does it look possible to remove the (upper) plate(s) from above with the main shaft in situ?
If so - I can dismantle, clean, and reassemble. Otherwise the best (unless the pin can be risked) is a liberal dosing of LE UT and a bit of manipulation by hand until everything is as free as it needs to be - and that is easier accomplished than a trip to a post office.
Your thoughts?

I think these distributors have a twin dog drive rather than geared . The drive LUGS are offset so that you can't put the distributor in 180 degrees out - reputed very difficult to dismantle without damage?
Bit more data from around that time http://www.sl113.org/wiki/Electrical/Distributor
If you think of the Single cam M114 as a development of the earlier engines found in the W113 SPORTS then it makes sense
the distributor is dog driven off the top of the injection pump gear in the W113 ?????? I think -----see this picture

 

[Bellow]

That doesn't look too bad. The fear with the pin is because when a gear is present it is overhanging the cam or jack shaft and if the pin jumps it can go anywhere. It would be restrained in the MB arrangement. In any case it appears everything that needs to be accessed can be accessed from above. Why, do you suppose, the main shaft isn't shown in the diagram? The part that carries/is the cam can be drawn upwards after removal of what is no doubt an awkward as hell circlip |I think. Make sense?
Any further elaboration on ''reputed very difficult to dismantle without damage?'' ?

 

[grober]

That doesn't look too bad. The fear with the pin is because when a gear is present it is overhanging the cam or jack shaft and if the pin jumps it can go anywhere. It would be restrained in the MB arrangement. In any case it appears everything that needs to be accessed can be accessed from above. Why, do you suppose, the main shaft isn't shown in the diagram? The part that carries/is the cam can be drawn upwards after removal of what is no doubt an awkward as hell circlip |I think. Make sense?
Any further elaboration on ''reputed very difficult to dismantle without damage?'' ?

Well further investigation on the EPC revealed two
sets of points for the m114 distributor

A0001582790 reference to grey cast iron distributor [ painted black??]
AND
A0001583590 reference to light metal housing [alloy]

reading between the lines = 2 types of distributor
1. the early cast iron painted black which I think is the "Petronix type" previously referred to

2. the later alloy type which is possibly what Charles' injection car has a variation of ?? [ good news is points are shared shared with a distributer found on later m110 engines]

CONCLUSION --- the petronix unit 1867A may or may not be applicable to the later distributer. That said there may be another petronix unit FOR THE M110 distributor in their line up that will fit


WHY DO FEEL I HAVE JUST WANDERED INTO A MINEFIELD


ps Any further elaboration on ''reputed very difficult to dismantle without damage?'' Simply remarks made by others on other forums They did not elaborate -- that said- they may not have been particularly adept at this type of engineeering.

 

[Charles Morgan]

They make them to fit the (23111) 6051,6061,6062 and 0002 and one to fit the 72 280SE.

 

[Bellow]

The likely differences in the PerTronix kit model to model are likely to be variations in the mount plate for the sensor - a comparison of the screw holes of the different dizzys will help here. That it can be fixed with the correct clearance to the rotation part is probably more important than its effect on timing as the dizzy can be swung to compensate or, in extremis, the plug leads swapped to different plugs.
The other potential variable - as it appears the magnetic part is a press fit on the existing cam - is that its internal diameter (or hex if formed) is compatible with the cam on the dizzy - measurable. NB - said part has a part number (18678 as pictured).
This is looking very promising.

 

[John Jones Jr]

It's always very helpful to have a good old debate on this stuff. Much as I hate to say, money is becoming an issue on this and something plug and play is important, for that, and if I'm very honest, because my brain is currently hurting and I just want to get the thing on the road now, with the minimum of fuss.

Noted about the dizzy looks, it wouldn't be the end of the world,

Well, just consider that the vast majority of aftermarket ECU's are designed to handle both fuel & ignition from what I've come across when buying my own, I don't imagine there's even a really worthwhile saving to be made buying an ECU just for fuel and it looks like the 123 dizzy is going to cost a few bob too and you'll still need to get the (fuel only) ECU mapped.

Simply, you need an ECU, so why not just get one that does both. Save all this flapping about with distributors, especially your original one which is forty plus years old, i.e from the Ark. Imo, there's a time to kick engine aesthetics in the nuts unless of course you are trying to get close to concours or similar.

Think on it anyway is my advice and also consider this, if I had a choice between an ECU to operate either fuel or ignition I'd opt for ignition first. All in my amature opinion of course and I'd be very happy to have my comments treated as rhetorical.

 

[grober]

Just a few piccies of the earlier grey iron type distributor which might?? be found on early W114/W115 examples to illustrate the differences between them and the later alloy bodied ones which Charles has.
taken from Rebuilt Bosch 383 / VJ4BR25 / 010 / VJ4BR8 / 019 / VJR4BR18 / 022 / VJU4BR8 / "Big Cap" 40hp Distributors

 

[grober]

From the first distributor picture Charles you appear to have a set of left hand one piece points located by holes/indents on the base plate* [ earlier two piece points come in two halves and there's a brass mounting pin on the base plate]

as I said a minefield!

Electronic Ignition Conversion Kits for 6-Cylinder Bosch Distributors

 

[Bellow]

as I said a minefield!

Indeed - yourfield!

You were spot on regarding matching by points type. Once the rotor arm is out of the way, eyeballing should get the job done. Good find (PerTronix), even better follow up.

 

[Charles Morgan]

Been busy, which will persist until Sunday evening, but I'll clean it up and take off the arm so we can compare.

 

[grober]

Right further research on the PETRONIX site Ignitor Kit Lookup
reveals the part for the 0231 301-004 DISTRIBUTOR
is IGNITOR 12V neg ground 2863
IGNITOR 2 9286 [ not recommended for non suppressed solid copper core plug leads evidently' ]

COIL 12V resistance recommended 3 ohms for 6 cylinder

another contact address

Pertronix Europe
1 Compton Place,
Surrey Avenue,
Camberley
Phone : 01276 65554


and website http://pertronixeurope.com/

long discussion on aftermarket distributor installs here -includes details on ballast resistors etc.
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum...tronix-install-early-107s-working-tach-2.html

 

[grober]

Sorry that Petronix Ignitor 2 part no---- should read 92863 not 9286
That said the Petronix Ignitor 1 2863 should be fine.
ps If you decide to go down that Petronix route prices seem to vary quite a bit from supplier to supplier so it may pay to shop around??

 

[Charles Morgan]

Graeme you are, as always, a superstar!

I shall do a lot of shopping around!

 

[Charles Morgan]

Quick update, Colin has been over to look at the welding need on the bulkhead, and the dash has to come out. Now trying to work out how...

Got a quote from Surface processing to do the doors, wings, bonnet and boot lid. Just at the point of inflexion between yes and no, so thinking about it.

Been pondering injection changes further, looking at the SM there is a Bosch sensor on the coil. I'm going to check with Nard but it wouldn't surprise me if the ignition is mapped.

Been polishing the cam cover. The casting is very rippled in places so I need to do a lot of sanding with lots of stages. This may take some time!

 

[grober]

And in the meantime-------- several grown men play with a Maserati engine!
[YOUTUBE]WVEWDqaOHq4[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Charles Morgan]

Nard (the main star) and Rene!

It does make a lovely noise and should fit...

 

[Bellow]

Should fit where?...

 

[Charles Morgan]

Into the coupe, no need to bother about getting it Megasquirted, just a straight transplant from the SM, need to turn the engine round for RWD though.

Just joking!

Right, coupe is off to Uncle Simeon first week in June, so I'll need to get my skates on next week before I head off on a choir tour the final week of May.