Mercedes W114 250 Coupe - help!

[Charles Morgan]

While I wait for the car to be collected (now 4 hours late) I found the perfect W114 with Grober's name all over it.

Wonderful period gold!

 

[Bellow]

If a long nosed circlip pliers wont fit and your dental picks are awol then apparently brute force works.
Distributor strip and re-assembly - 113 905 205AH

This kind of brute force it appears: ''

Anyway, the advance mechanism in most Bosch dissys I've worked on are retained by a circlip to the shaft. What I do is mount the points lobe end in a wood block lined vice, tighten it up so it's firmly held and then get a biggish tapered punch and hammer and firmly tap on the actual shaft through the top of the advance mechanism. Try to "dead blow" the hammer as you don't want the shaft rocketing out and you want to keep the punch in there to stop the circlip being lost. When the shaft has "popped" loose (you will know, believe me), ''

I think I will be consulting CM before I go that brutal.
Handy link - cheers.

I don't know is the straightforward answer - did I leave something in the box? This would not be the first, or likely the last, time.

Yes, a roll of what I know not - bearing the legend Clean your Car...Detailing Co. Appears to be either a roll or pad(s) of white fibrous material that I suspect if I release from its plastic will expand to fill the room. I'll pop it back in the box.....

 

[Charles Morgan]

Going brutal has my full support - if the thing can't be refurbished it is of no use anyway!

Ryan been and gone at speed - apart from being a tardy recovery driver he is a time served panel-beater, and he pronounced the car's underside as sound as a bell. Unlike the previous car he had just delivered that left large chunks of itself all over the truck. So, name that car time!

 

[trapperjohn]

Mercedes 210.

 

[Charles Morgan]

I'll do it as twenty questions. Not a 210

19.

 

[Charles Morgan]

Now feeling bereft. No coupe in the garage, gone. The only consolation the magnificence of the Kiftsgate rose in full flower in front of the empty space.

 

[Bellow]

Some progress with the dizzy - which inevitably raises questions.
It is pretty much stripped, top plates removed - the (mech) advance mechanism is in view, the vac plate as free as can be, and overall in reasonable, rescueable condition. However, I cannot properly check the mechanical advance as I cannot access the drive dog to restrain it. The reason is, where here ...

...it is visible, on the one I'm working on it is within a long alloy tube with a mounting lug that obviously bolts to the engine block, extends up to the dizzy's base, and has the clamp mounted on it, so....

Q1) Am I correct in thinking the dizzy body has to be free to rotate within that tube (for timing adjustment it surely must) and therefore can (once 'freed') be drawn from the rest of the dizzy. (Anyone can come in on that one).

Q2) to CM. What exactly electrically speaking needs to go back on the dizzy?
Q3) Assuming the D-Jetronic points are not required which of the following is preferred? A) Reinstall all of it. B) Reinstall it but with the points removed. C) As B but with plastic plug removed. D) A new blanking plate (if I can find suitable material).
Q4) To fit the PetRonix(?) system, does the upper (ignition points) cam remain, have to be removed, have to be modified?
Q5) Anyone can come in on this one...In operation, the mechanical advance bob weights bear against the bodies of the return springs. That doesn't quite seem right to me. Anyone with a view on it?
Q6) Which car did that bit of rust come from?

 

[Charles Morgan]

Reading the Pertronix installation instructions the only things to be removed are the points, condenser and grommet, all to be kept as back up. No other modifications needed at all.

The Djet stuff can all be left, while it will perform no useful role, it is there if a future reinstatement is needed.

I would take a pic of the Dizzy mounting in the engine, but without the car, I can't until Monday.

The rust came from a Jenson Interceptor. There was a considerable amount of it all over the truck.

 

[Bellow]

Reading the Pertronix installation instructions the only things to be removed are the points, condenser and grommet, all to be kept as back up. No other modifications needed at all.

So the points, condenser, and the braided wire can be removed for good?

The Djet stuff can all be left, while it will perform no useful role, it is there if a future reinstatement is needed.

Well, if I leave it in there it will be worn out before it is ever needed. I've found a neat piece of alloy to blank the hole off with and the D-Jet parts can be set aside (in a freezer bag in the glovebox if you are prone to mislaying things!)

I would take a pic of the Dizzy mounting in the engine, but without the car, I can't until Monday.

This aspect it has just occurred to me may be more significant than first realised. Was it yourself who removed the dizzy from the engine? (In which case presumably you chose the most obvious route). Or was it removed by another who had already ascertained that the assembly was seized?
The problem here is that seized as it is no timing adjustment is possible and that part will not be supplied with a replacement dizzy. Unless one can be obtained secondhand. What I suspect has happened is water has entered from above and the oil seal mid height has trapped it and corrosion has occurred. It really does not want to move - despite being heated. Currently soaking it with Monolex and will try again but just as I was thinking about cutting it off to salvage the dizzy - the importance of it struck. Talking of replacements, you will definitely need a new vacuum capsule. An easily obtained part?

The rust came from a Jenson Interceptor. There was a considerable amount of it all over the truck.

I pity the bloke having that to sort out...

 

[Charles Morgan]

I took it out - just came out with no issue. I am assuming from your post that something got left behind in that process?

Vacuum capsules aren't readily available.

 

[Bellow]

Got taken with the dizzy - the mounting tube that would normally stay on the block. The pic of the other guy's spare one has left the tube on the engine. If you recall yours has that lower section where the black seal is mid height and the drive dog is showing (in pic) encased in a tube with a boss from which you removed the bolt fastening it to the engine. Put simply, had you tried to remove it leaving the tube on the engine you would not have succeeded - it is stuck fast.

No vac capsule - where from here?

 

[grober]

There is I believe a mounting sleeve part no A1141580015 It has a clamp nut and also a mounting lug for a bolt. I imagine the distributor body + shaft should rotate within this sleeve to advance/retard the timing. picture upside down.

Other distributors have a different arrangement where the mounting lug+bolt appears to be part of the distributor body and used to position the distributor.
Some pictures of various arrangements around that time here if you scroll down.
Motor u. Getriebe - Mercedes-Benz Ersatzteile Köln

Sounds as if the shaft is seized in the sleeve but without the distributor assembly in front of me difficult to judge. Hope this helps.

 

[Charles Morgan]

So, as I can easily source a replacement dizzy, either 123 or original part, it would seem to me the more important thing to save is actually the mounting tube. If that can't be separated, I should be able to find one but it may take some time.

 

[Bellow]

Grober has it spot on.
The orientation of the pic is upside down. The smaller lug locates a clamp for securing the dizzy against rotation when tightened, permits it to be 'swung' for timing adjustment when slackened.

 

[Charles Morgan]

There is I believe a mounting sleeve part no A1141580015 It has a clamp nut and also a mounting lug for a bolt. I imagine the distributor body + shaft should rotate within this sleeve to advance/retard the timing. picture upside down.

Other distributors have a different arrangement where the mounting lug+bolt appears to be part of the distributor body and used to position the distributor.
Some pictures of various arrangements around that time here if you scroll down.
Motor u. Getriebe - Mercedes-Benz Ersatzteile Köln

Sounds as if the shaft is seized in the sleeve but without the distributor assembly in front of me difficult to judge. Hope this helps.

That is exactly what is on the base of the dizzy. So the mounting pipe is indeed attached to the dizzy and Colin's pic is of what it's like in reality.

 

[Bellow]

They are, again, two separate components. And the mech advance, the vacuum capsule and the amount of lateral play on the drive-end of the shaft are now the concerns.
Mech advance appears healthy but the degree (or degrees) of rotation seems a little limited. I'll measure more accurately tomorrow but knowing the permitted advance it should deliver would be helpful.
Vac capsules are I think a pretty standard item though possibly with differing internal springs for different applications. Might one be obtained from another source. I can cut open the existing one and try and gauge the stiffness of its spring. It is totally shot with a free air passage over what remains of the diaphragm.
A bit sloppy at the base of the shaft but the pin appears to be retained by a wound clip implying no brutality required to remove and investigate so a task for tomorrow and to be cross referenced with G's Samba link rebuild.
Where to source a vac capsule though? (Prefarably a new unperished one).

 

[grober]

http://mb.bolinko.org/wis/w114/Engine/Repair/00-0.pdf ------for degrees of mechanical advance- that's on a 250 twin carb . Not sure on where to source a capsule ---canibalising off another distributor I would guess.

 

[Bellow]

Cheers G - I'll look at that tomorrow.
Just had a very quick trawl of the 'net and there are new Bosch capsules. Finding the correct one (or a suitable one) will be the trick.
Link below supplies for VAG, Porsche.

VW Bosch distributor replacement vacuum advance unit Bosch SVDA vacuum advance unit 034 distributor [IA_Bosch_vac] - £16.50 : Electronic Ignition, Home of the Powerspark electronic ignition and electronic distributor

 

[Charles Morgan]

Well, many thanks for getting quite this far! I really don't want to impose though - if you think it a vain pursuit then I'm happy to draw stumps.

 

[Bellow]

No imposition whatsoever - a good practice run for my 40kg project which left Reigate yesterday and should be with me next week!
I'll check the play on the shaft's end and the mech advance today. If that is all OK and a capsule can be found then you will soon have a functioning dizzy.