New petrol and diesel car sales will be 'banned from 2030'

[Deleted member 126969]

The distribution of EV charging points is rather different from traditional pumps - and the number of charging points required is higher because it takes longer to recharge a EV.

So the high relative number of EV charging stations number is perhaps a further sign of technology failure - demonstrating an obscene amount of infrastructure will be required given that EVs are curently such a small population of (typically) private cars as opposed to commercial and HGVs.

As it should be, given that most won’t be refuelling an EV the way we refuel ICE. Yes, I know everyone doesn’t have a driveway and I know everyone doesn’t do 40 miles a day, and I of course accept that current EV offerings don’t fit the bill for all.

Part of the problem is pretending EV and ICE are the same. They aren’t, and there will be some changes of habit required. That seems to be the main crime EVs commit, making people change. I only take my hybrid to the petrol pump about once a year (yes, I know my usage pattern is very much an edge case) but I certainly don’t miss that experience. Sadly, I still have to take the 2 petrol burning utterly pointless sportscars to the petrol station with alarming regularity.

Anyone with a driveway or reasonably convenient public or destination charger is likely to be more than happy with the new order Once the initial shock of change is overcome.

Or perhaps I’m just being too optimistic.

 

[Tonygw]

I think your being to optimistic.

 

[ChipChop]

I only take my hybrid to the petrol pump about once a year (yes, I know my usage pattern is very much an edge case) but I certainly don’t miss that experience. Sadly, I still have to take the 2 petrol burning utterly pointless sportscars to the petrol station with alarming regularity.

Sounds like the ideal transport for your low mileage (13 mile electric range C350e) needs is a bicycle or public transport not a hybrid car. Not that i would want to legislate against anyone having the right to choose their own mode of personal transport based on their own circumstances.

 

[Deleted member 126969]

Sounds like the ideal transport for your low mileage (13 mile electric range C350e) needs is a bicycle or public transport not a hybrid car. Not that i would want to legislate against anyone having the right to choose their own mode of personal transport based on their own circumstances.

The amount I’ve lost in depreciation would have more than paid for luxury limo travel given the miles I do I suspect……but there’s always that choice thing isn’t there.

Public transport would never have worked for me when I was working due to the remote location of my workplace. I could have changed jobs of course, but again, back to that choice/freedom thing.

Now I’m retired I could make a better fist of using public transport no doubt….but again, choice. I don’t choose to.

I try to minimise my impact, but I'm not putting on a hair shirt just yet.

 

[Deleted member 126969]

I think your being to optimistic.

Sadly, I think I am.

 

[markjay]

That shows it (by reg#) to be liable for £12.50 daily in ULEZ. Bi-fuel no longer classed as low emissions then. Given it is low in the pollutants that are least desired in built up areas (NOx, UBHC and particulates) that is an oversight. In view of how many butchered diesels have brought us to this point it is a travesty.

I am assuming that the potential issue with bi-fuel cars is that they can also be driven on petrol or diesel only, so there's no way to enforce use of LPG while driving through the city? Though you could I suppose claim tbe same about Hybrid cars.

 

[markjay]

Also, from memory, when Prius were exempt from the London Congestion Charge, the exemption was also applied in principle to bi-fuel cars, but only those that were supplied as bi-fuel from the factory, or were converted by an 'approved' fitter.

I remember looking at it at the time, when the wife changed cars (around 2008 I think), but very few cars were available with factory-fitted LPG (I think Volvo was one if them), and we couldn't bother with an expensive conversion for the sake of saving the CC.

What seemed odd for us at the time was that in Italy, where we spent our summer holidays, both LPG and 'metano' were very popular and many new cars had them (though they may have been dealer-conversions, I don't know).

So I think that the issue with LPG isn't that it's not recognised as 'clean', but that there's no way of knowing if the car is actually driven on LPG, or if the system is even functional.

 

[SW18]

Also, from memory, when Prius were exempt from the London Congestion Charge, the exemption was also applied in principle to bi-fuel cars, but only those that were supplied as bi-fuel from the factory, or were converted by an 'approved' fitter.

I remember looking at it at the time, when the wife changed cars (around 2008 I think), but very few cars were available with factory-fitted LPG (I think Volvo was one if them), and we couldn't bother with an expensive conversion for the sake of saving the CC.

What seemed odd for us at the time was that in Italy, where we spent our summer holidays, both LPG and 'metano' were very popular and many new cars had them (though they may have been dealer-conversions, I don't know).

So I think that the issue with LPG isn't that it's not recognised as 'clean', but that there's no way of knowing if the car is actually driven on LPG, or if the system is even functional.

This is the same with PHEVs, though: currently exempt from C Charge but could of course be running on petrol / self-charge only and never plugged in. I’ll bet the C350e isn’t very efficient in urban driving if it hasn’t been plugged in...

 

[Bellow]

I am assuming that the potential issue with bi-fuel cars is that they can also be driven on petrol or diesel only, so there's no way to enforce use of LPG while driving through the city? Though you could I suppose claim tbe same about Hybrid cars.

53p/litre vs 130p/litre kinda answers that! But you are correct, not enforceable.
LPG is big in Italy. Not really sure why but I'm guessing it's related to some tax or another. Most of the LPG kit is Italian in origin. It's been that way for years.

 

[Bellow]

This is the same with PHEVs, though: currently exempt from C Charge but could of course be running on petrol / self-charge only and never plugged in. I’ll bet the C350e isn’t very efficient in urban driving if it hasn’t been plugged in...

I read on this forum a while back about PHEVs being used/given as company cars and never being recharged after the first charge had been depleted - but enjoying the tax advantage nonetheless - and being disgusted by the selfishness of it.
Lugging about a heavy battery that consumed a huge amount of energy to manufacture and, it being constantly 'flat' will reduce its life leading to it needing premature replacement and hardly enhancing the public's perception of battery life (without them knowing the true cause) is inexcusable.
It will be a repeat of the diesel fiasco where the government expect improvements in air quality based on the type of vehicles in use but never see it due to the 'cheating'.

 

[grober]

Also, from memory, when Prius were exempt from the London Congestion Charge, the exemption was also applied in principle to bi-fuel cars, but only those that were supplied as bi-fuel from the factory, or were converted by an 'approved' fitter.

I remember looking at it at the time, when the wife changed cars (around 2008 I think), but very few cars were available with factory-fitted LPG (I think Volvo was one if them), and we couldn't bother with an expensive conversion for the sake of saving the CC.

What seemed odd for us at the time was that in Italy, where we spent our summer holidays, both LPG and 'metano' were very popular and many new cars had them (though they may have been dealer-conversions, I don't know).

So I think that the issue with LPG isn't that it's not recognised as 'clean', but that there's no way of knowing if the car is actually driven on LPG, or if the system is even functional.

ALtho LPG is slightly cleaner [greener] with a slightly lower carbon/hydrogen ratio--- i.e. towards pure hydrogen--- its popularity took a dip when the tax disparity with petrol decreased. see this ten year old article.
LPG: It's lean, green and cheaper too

Again like ethanol based fuels there may also be national import balance of payments arguements for countries low in oil based resources

 

[Petrol Pete]

I saw an article recently that stated the car makers have told the government that if they want to achieve the ban on ICE cars by the end of the decade they must build 2.3 million public charging points. By 'they' I assume they mean the government.

I am no mathematician but that leaves them 3097 days (working weekends and bank holidays) to install 2300000 charge points.

That is 742 per day.

Either

• The report is complete bull$hit
• My calculator needs a new spring in it
• The whole idea of no more ICE cars by 2030 is complete bull$hit.

I have been out on the roads for an hour this morning and have not seen a single new charging point being installed , they must be starting somewhere else in the country.

 

[grober]

As I understand it the ban is for the manufacture of ICE cars by the end of the decade not their use? Altho if current trends continue certain urban areas will be designated as ICE free sooner than that implying that the change to EV will be dictated more by location/legislation rather than manufacture cessation?

 

[Bellow]

ALtho LPG is slightly cleaner [greener] with a slightly lower carbon/hydrogen ratio--- i.e. towards pure hydrogen--- its popularity took a dip when the tax disparity with petrol decreased. see this ten year old article.

I'm more inclined to believe that diesels killed LPG more than any taxation changes. Quite simply, diesels delivered acceptable fuelling bills that rendered LPG obsolete in most people's mind. Diesel is on the ropes and there's hardly any LPG pumps, which, are a variation on a theme to petrol and diesel suppliers - unlike hydrogen or EV charging.
There are twice as many hydrogen stations in Aberdeen as LPG stations. The LPG there is 53p/litre, 10 miles north it is 70p/litre and further out, 75p/litre. That's due to supplier pricing not taxation.
LPG was a bridge burned by diesel and we're about to burn all ICE bridges with EVs. I have to assume joined-up-thinking has a hideous carbon footprint and was thus abandoned some time ago - but even that assumes a competence which is sorely lacking.

I'm not pretending LPG is the answer for CO2 related issues, but for local air quality it beats petrol and especially diesel hands down and without the hideous and hideously expensive exhaust after-treatment they require - or the absolute need for electrification. There are many other methods of reducing CO2 emissions but not many left to improve air quality. Upping LPG supply points is as valid as installing EV charge points - and easy on existing petrol/diesel forecourts.

 

[markjay]

I'm more inclined to believe that diesels killed LPG more than any taxation changes. Quite simply, diesels delivered acceptable fuelling bills that rendered LPG obsolete in most people's mind. Diesel is on the ropes and there's hardly any LPG pumps, which, are a variation on a theme to petrol and diesel suppliers - unlike hydrogen or EV charging.
There are twice as many hydrogen stations in Aberdeen as LPG stations. The LPG there is 53p/litre, 10 miles north it is 70p/litre and further out, 75p/litre. That's due to supplier pricing not taxation.
LPG was a bridge burned by diesel and we're about to burn all ICE bridges with EVs. I have to assume joined-up-thinking has a hideous carbon footprint and was thus abandoned some time ago - but even that assumes a competence which is sorely lacking.

I'm not pretending LPG is the answer for CO2 related issues, but for local air quality it beats petrol and especially diesel hands down and without the hideous and hideously expensive exhaust after-treatment they require - or the absolute need for electrification. There are many other methods of reducing CO2 emissions but not many left to improve air quality. Upping LPG supply points is as valid as installing EV charge points - and easy on existing petrol/diesel forecourts.

I think you hit the nail on the head: the time for LPG came and went. The future is zero exhaust emissions, initially in city centres and eventually everywhere.

 

[Bellow]

The future is zero exhaust emissions, initially in city centres and eventually everywhere.

Feels like we are being asked to jump from the top board at the swimming baths with a vague assurance that the pool will be full of water when we do. Right now it isn't even one tenth full and it's impossible to judge the depth from the top board. And the steps we used to get there have been removed.

 

[ChipChop]

How to achieve Absolute Zero emissions by 2050. This document is part of a research programme sponsored by the UK Government and it details proposals to achieve absolute zero emissions in different industrial sectors.

Regarding road vehicles by 2050 we will only have 60% of the electricity required to power a fleet equivalent to that in use today. Therefore we will either use 60% fewer cars or they will be 60% of the size.

The steel used to manufacture cars currently via blast furnace production is not compatible with zero emissions. Development of auto grade steel from recycling (scrapped ICE cars?) is therefore a priority.

Between 2030-2050 all airports to close as there are no options for zero emissions aviation. Electric Rail travel to be used instead for domestic & train reach tourism.

International freight - there are no zero emissions ships so there is an urgent need to explore means to electrify shipping by 2050. International electric rail freight to be used instead. This requires an enormous expansion in international rail freight capacity.

Construction. All existing forms of cement production are incompatible with zero emissions. Urgent need to develop alternative processes. Also new steel produced for the construction industry to be replaced by the use of recycled steel.


https://www.ukfires.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Absolute-Zero-online.pdf

 

[Bellow]

https://www.ukfires.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Absolute-Zero-online.pdf

Another interesting article ChipChop - thanks.
I'm only ten pages in (I'll read the rest later) but a point re concrete and steel production. Bill Gates (yes, him) makes the point that the 'greening' of those should be a top priority given the indispensability of the two in production of secure housing.

The article repeatedly references changes in personal behaviour - are enough people reading these articles to understand the difference they can make? That's not a criticism of the authors but the head-in-the-sand, government-will-fix-it - and when we don't like the solutions we'll just ignore them anyway attitude that seems more prevalent than actual engagement. Despite us being on the brink of losing our personal mobility if CO2 emissions aren't adequately reduced.

 

[ChipChop]

Another interesting article ChipChop - thanks.
I'm only ten pages in (I'll read the rest later) but a point re concrete and steel production. Bill Gates (yes, him) makes the point that the 'greening' of those should be a top priority given the indispensability of the two in production of secure housing.

The article repeatedly references changes in personal behaviour - are enough people reading these articles to understand the difference they can make? That's not a criticism of the authors but the head-in-the-sand, government-will-fix-it - and when we don't like the solutions we'll just ignore them anyway attitude that seems more prevalent than actual engagement. Despite us being on the brink of losing our personal mobility if CO2 emissions aren't adequately reduced.

The established methods for producing concrete and steel may not be compatible with a zero emissions by 2050 target but they do have the advantage of allowing structures to remain standing upright reliably for a lifetime of intended use which is obviously desirable. Best not to let vested interests like Gates et al run the show or some poor souls will end up in a pile of rubble.

My own opinion on the personal responsibility argument is people will buy what the market offers them. Solution - the market needs to change. Now if only there was a way to prevent lightning occuring naturally. A significant source of global Nitrogen Oxide / NOx.

 

[markjay]

How to achieve Absolute Zero emissions by 2050. This document is part of a research programme sponsored by the UK Government and it details proposals to achieve absolute zero emissions in different industrial sectors.

Regarding road vehicles by 2050 we will only have 60% of the electricity required to power a fleet equivalent to that in use today. Therefore we will either use 60% fewer cars or they will be 60% of the size.

The steel used to manufacture cars currently via blast furnace production is not compatible with zero emissions. Development of auto grade steel from recycling (scrapped ICE cars?) is therefore a priority.

Between 2030-2050 all airports to close as there are no options for zero emissions aviation. Electric Rail travel to be used instead for domestic & train reach tourism.

International freight - there are no zero emissions ships so there is an urgent need to explore means to electrify shipping by 2050. International electric rail freight to be used instead. This requires an enormous expansion in international rail freight capacity.

Construction. All existing forms of cement production are incompatible with zero emissions. Urgent need to develop alternative processes. Also new steel produced for the construction industry to be replaced by the use of recycled steel.


https://www.ukfires.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Absolute-Zero-online.pdf

I think that there are two separate goals here, which partially overlap.

The long term goal is to reduce emissions across industries.

But the immediate goal is to improve air quality in city centres. This will reduce both pollution-related illness (Asthma etc) and deaths (Cancers).

EVs are the perfect solution for the immediate goal, but they are only a small part of the solution for the long-term one.