Oil catch tank

[RBYCC]

And coked the valves up. Coking is a result of spraying the petrol onto the back of the valve to cause evaporation, not oil vapour.

Can you provide proper analysis data to show that removal of breather fumes improves performance or longevity?

If by your hypothesis coking is the result of spraying a clean light hydrocarbon (petrol) on the back of the valve then what would a vapor of oil contaminated by 50% water and other corrosive agents created as the by product of combustion do to the valve?

Not sure how old you are but pre-emissions concerns, the internal engine pressure that creates blowby was relieved by a road draft tube in combination with valve/cam cover breathers.

Now using common sense what would give better performance and combustion:
a) clean intake air
b) intake air contaminated with oil and other byproducts of combustion.

The oil separator has a great deal of validity especially in industrial diesels.
In these applications the separators are much more sophisticated.
http://www.solbergmfg.com/ViewSeriesDetail.aspx?SeriesId=145

In fact Volvo thought it important enough to include it in an engine design in 1991.
http://www.motor.com/magazine/pdfs/072001_09.pdf

You being "Dieselman" should be aware that most of the research on oil separators is being done on diesels.
Apparently you're not up on your "reading" of current diesel technology !!

How about an SAE paper..you can purchase the paper if the abstract is not sufficient for you !!
http://subscriptions.sae.org/content/2008-01-2687/

How about what Cummins thinks is a good idea..
http://www.fleetguard.com/pdfs/product_lit/emea_brochures/LT36168.pdf


Is thi a shocker...excerpt from the SAE paper linked below:

"The inflow of oil mist particles contained in blow-by gas into the intake system worsens emissions. A higher performance oil mist separator system is required to meet emission regulations which will inevitably become stricter in the future."
http://subscriptions.sae.org/content/2000-01-1234/

And guess what VW builds into their TDI engines..an oil mist separator !!!
http://www.hengst.de/conpresso/_rubric/index.php?rubric=Automotive_OE__Cylinder_Head_Covers__Volkswagen_EN
And more...
http://www.mahle.com/MAHLE/en/Products/Air-Management-Systems/Crankcase-ventilation-systems/Oil-mist-separator
http://www.hengst.de/conpresso/_rubric/detail.php?nr=5420&rubric=Press__Press_releases_EN&PHPSESSID=84709eac3f259d67e05266e3037ef7b6


By your standards and beliefs it is pure folly as you fail to apply basic common sense....

High performance or engines pressurized by a turbo or supercharger need them even more as if the engine has a blow by problem it could seriously damage downstream components..

Continue to live in the dark with belief that contaminated corrosive intake air is good for your intake valves..
And as you do you will hopefully discover that oil mist sperators are being mandated by the USA and IEC as standard equipment to maintain a higher emissions standards..

Sometimes "us gearheads" lead the way with a performance mod based on "common sense" which the engineers embrace !!

 

[Dieselman]

What a load of baloney.

The engines you cite, in particular the VW unit is deploying a separator to stop the DPF getting coated and clogged with ash.

Now let me think...does a C230k have a DPF? Umm...No..

I've worked on engines both with and without oil separators an open and recirculated breather systems, which have nothing to do with valve coking.

The engines are designed so the oil separator catches most of the oil and it drips back into the engine by gravity, you don't need to mess about externally.
Probably what happened is that someone noticed on one a racing car engine so thinks...that must be good, Ill fit one...

It's a none entity and offers no real world benefit, but then again the same could be said for bigger brakes, spoilers, chipping...the list goes on...

I don't think Mr Stavrossy, Green wheels was using an oil mist separator to reduce slight emissions of burning oil, was he..??

 

[Whitey]

I might add WD40 injection

 

[RBYCC]

What a load of baloney.

It's a none entity and offers no real world benefit, but then again the same could be said for bigger brakes, spoilers, chipping...the list goes on...

Thank you, thank you, thank you...
Honored to receive such advice from an oracle as you...

After forty five years + of owning, maintaining, building,and racing high performance vehicles I realize there is no reason for change or progress..

Things should be as they were....

I'm off to install a mast and a mainsail on my CLK63 AMG Black Series..
Hopefully the Gods will grant me an ever strong tail wind...

 

[lupi]

I perfectly agree with Dieselman, breather pipes going to intake manifolds
have been used for ages, however they did have a sort of a wire mesh filter,
fitted somewhere between the breather inlet/outlet,usually it was serviced
by taking it out and wash in paraffin.

Common sense;would there have been an alternative, don`t you think
manufactures have already done it !!

As already mentioned by Uberwagoon:
If the engine breathing affects performance, then your engine is breathing heavy enough to be class as in need of a rebuild anyway.

 

[Whitey]

Hi

We are only messing about with high mileage daily runners to be fair.

I don't think anyone would consider messing about with breather/air filters etc. on a 'decent' car - I suspect that RBYCC hasn't drilled holes in his Black series airbox for a start !

It puzzles me why people take things straight to heart; we are only tinkering with our own cars and not telling everyone to do it ?

Chris

 

[RBYCC]

Hi

We are only messing about with high mileage daily runners to be fair.

I don't think anyone would consider messing about with breather/air filters etc. on a 'decent' car - I suspect that RBYCC hasn't drilled holes in his Black series airbox for a start !

It puzzles me why people take things straight to heart; we are only tinkering with our own cars and not telling everyone to do it ?

Chris

Chris..

I tend to agree with you..
If you read my original DIY and those subsequent, I refer to High performance and engines under boost.
My install was on a twin turbo M103...
The catch can was installed as a safety factor to prevent gunking up the expensive performance parts of the system.

Would I install a catch can on my BS...sure would if I was tracking it.
A very inexpensive piece of equipment that could save thousands by protecting more expensive items.

By the way...not necessary to drill any holes in an airbox as the "catch can" is installed between the engine breather and the airbox.

My issue with "Dieselman" is that he tends to negate any performance mod...
True some are needed and others installed because one thinks they are needed...

I only do mods to attain safety, performance and reliability..


I'm not a novice...my 1988 300CE was purchased new by me in May of 1988 for USD $53K.
All the mods from the install of a period TurboTechnics kit to the current project of replicating the very rare C124 widebody offers a great deal of value to a true enthusiast who has the financial capacity to own or purchase.
And much like "Dieselman" has disdain for, I haven't installed "big brakes"..
Why? Because I prefer to be true to the "period".
If I was to track the car on a regular basis, then big brakes would be an imperative.

No different then an art collector...
Those that can afford to own do, those that can't mostly negate who can afford as foolish
We all have our interests and passions and mine isn't for vehicles that are less then pristine !

To each his own !!

Ed A.

 

[RBYCC]

As already mentioned by Uberwagoon:
If the engine breathing affects performance, then your engine is breathing heavy enough to be class as in need of a rebuild anyway.

You tend to generalize and miss the point..
A normally aspirated engine can't develop internal pressure that is more then atmosphere.

However a boosted engine can attain more then 2X + atmosphere..

Try to apply common sense...which needs to be relieved more and which has the propensity towards more oil blow by ?

 

[Dieselman]

My issue with "Dieselman" is that he tends to negate any performance mod...
True some are needed and others installed because one thinks they are needed...

No I don't, but when someone starts shooting off about what it can do when they are clearly ignorant and in the wrong, why should I let that go?
You have installed a catch because you believe the oil mist MAY in some way damage your turbo's. I just don't see that and if anything the oil may act as an additional lubricant.
The green wheeled slidey King has some strange notion that it will somehow improve performance, even though he never sees any oil in his bottle. Can't have it both ways.

And much like "Dieselman" has disdain for, I haven't installed "big brakes"..
Why? Because I prefer to be true to the "period".
If I was to track the car on a regular basis, then big brakes would be an imperative.

But not for the reason most people think.
Big brakes slow cars down..period...but the larger disk mass is required to soak more energy before fade sets in. That's why track cars need larger brakes and road cars don't.
If you can effectively cool the disks with air ducts then the smaller the disk the better, as long as you can gain maximum braking force.

Seeing something in Max power doesn't mean it's right as adequate testing would prove.

 

[Dieselman]

You tend to generalize and miss the point..
A normally aspirated engine can't develop internal pressure that is more then atmosphere.

However a boosted engine can attain more then 2X + atmosphere..

Pretty well all turbodiesels provide at least an additional Bar of pressure and run high compression ratios, but don't breath heavily.

As Uberwagon says, if it breathes heavily, there is something wrong.

 

[lupi]

Thank you Dieselman

Pretty well all turbodiesels provide at least an additional Bar of pressure and run high compression ratios, but don't breath heavily.

As Uberwagon says, if it breathes heavily, there is something wrong.

Thank you Dieselman,you saved me all the typing.

 

[Dieselman]

Thank you Dieselman,you saved me all the typing.

While we are at it we might as well correct this one as well.

A normally aspirated engine can't develop internal pressure that is more then atmosphere.

All engines create pressure in the crankcase, irrespective of intake air boost pressure, that's why they need a breather system.

 

[Number_Cruncher]

>>Big brakes slow cars down..period.

Oddly enough, many big brake conversions don't actually work very well. Usually, a car's braking balance must, by force of law, be designed to provide optimum use of the available adhesion. Bolting larger front brakes on tends to move the braking performance AWAY from the optimum.

As most people who buy these modifications don't tend to do any rigourous testing, they never realise it, and simply report vague and subjective "feel of the seat of the pants" types of report. Reporting more "bite" [whatever that is!] is also common.

In most cases, modifications are either badly thought out, or, make the car extreme in some way (which is why some want them, and that's fair enough if they understand what they are doing). However, it is a rare modified car which is worth any more than an unmolested one when the time comes to sell.

 

[DRBC43AMG]

Well Gentlemen, as the OP I didn't think this question would end up in a shooting" match I will probably let the catch tank question die and let the engine breath it's oily breath

 

[lupi]

>>Big brakes slow cars down..period.

Oddly enough, many big brake conversions don't actually work very well. Usually, a car's braking balance must, by force of law, be designed to provide optimum use of the available adhesion. Bolting larger front brakes on tends to move the braking performance AWAY from the optimum.

As most people who buy these modifications don't tend to do any rigourous testing, they never realise it, and simply report vague and subjective "feel of the seat of the pants" types of report. Reporting more "bite" [whatever that is!] is also common.

In most cases, modifications are either badly thought out, or, make the car extreme in some way (which is why some want them, and that's fair enough if they understand what they are doing). However, it is a rare modified car which is worth any more than an unmolested one when the time comes to sell.

Number Cruncher, I agree.

What I cannot understand is, how do modified cars without certified engineer`s report and respectives transport authorities in the EU, allow these vechiles to go though MOT`s ?

Surely, everbody here, knows we have arrived at Stage Eur 5 vechiles and
transport authorities only accepts road legal vechiles which have valued certificates from the manufacturer, any tampering/modifications with mechanical systems of a vechile should be subject to qualified certification, otherwise I doubt if they are road legal !

Obviously this is my opinion and I could be mistaken about it.

Please let me have your comments.

Lupi

 

[Number_Cruncher]

What I cannot understand is, how do modified cars without certified engineer`s report and respectives transport authorities in the EU, allow these vechiles to go though MOT`s ?

The MOT in the UK is a pragmatic, quick, and relatively cheap inspection. It could be extended to detect deviations from manufacturer's specification, but, that would put up the cost and increase the time taken. Whether such a change would actually make a sensible or measurable increase in safety would be debatable.

It's worth comparing a pragmatic MOT with something more thorough like the Japanese Shaken.

In fact, the presence or absence of an MOT doesn't have a particularly strong effect. Members of the garage trade may howl in protest at the suggestion, but, the proportion of serious accidents caused by faults which could have been detected by an MOT is truly tiny. Human error is much more commonly at the root of serious accidents, but, the human can drive from passing the test aged 17 until they are pensioners without any re-check being made.

 

[StavFC]

The green wheeled slidey King has some strange notion that it will somehow improve performance, even though he never sees any oil in his bottle. Can't have it both ways.

Jesus wept. I cant even belive im replying to someone so totally clueless they think cruddy oil residue being sucked through a turbo compressor wheel is good to lubricate it, but I look back after a few days and find you calling me pathetic names, so...

I was seeing oil when the vac from the s/c was sucking it in to the airbox and over the air filter, like you do on pretty much all turbo cars with the same setup, especially when tuned or done a few miles.

Its there to suck away the oil vapours for emissions reasons, but as a consequence sucks oil too. Same on any engine.

Now the vapours go to atmo, at best get a fine sheen in the catch tank, but mostly water from the condenstation, and now my pipes arent full of oil and **** like they are with the stock setup.

If you think oil inside a turbo, intercooler, and everything else associated with it is good in any way you really need to step away from engines.

Good old internet as ever- No practical experiences of what they are talking about, who has to resort to kiddy name calling as he has nothing logical to back up his ridiculous notions.

 

[BlackC55]

The kompessor 111 engine has some little brass tubes located on the left of the cylinder head. These block up and cause the engine to breathe loads of oil. Take the inlet manifold off and clean them out or replace them. I would put money on them being blocked.

 

[Whitey]

Will has pointed out the brass jets to me already, put I'm stubborn/lazy to take it all apart !

 

[Dieselman]

J I look back after a few days and find you calling me pathetic names, so...

Agreed, that wasn't reasonable, apologies for that.

Back to the original point, I asked you for the reasons that the catch tank is better than closed loop breathers and you didn't give any.
I never said the oil would lubricate the compressor, obviously that's done by the engine oil, but a slight oil mist will lubricate intake valve seats and stems, reducing seat erosion.
The slight mist of oil will do no harm or reduce performance, but the breather system is set to use vacuum scavenging to ensure the fumes are drawn away properly.

If an engine is breathing heavily enough to have oil passed up the breather then it needs reconditioning, by your own admission yours puts no oil into the catch bottle, ergo isn't breathing oil, thus what benefit are you gaining from the remote breather?