Reaction Times

[glojo]

of course it's doing something positive, that's the point I was making.

We learn to drive, we learn to react to circumstances. In a car we have limited choices.

1, if there's time to do so stop

2, if there's no time to stop swerve around it weighing up whether or not there is anything else we are likely to hit

3, accelerate past the danger - despite what 99% of drivers will have you believe this is seldom an option as most of our cars don't have that 'snap' acceleration to get us out of trouble

4, hit whatever obstacle was there but try and limit the damage.

The brain makes these calculations and muscles react because these responses are set in our subconcious

Now, back to your earlobe analogy.

If you were to give the subject ten years to practice doing one of four things on your command you would be closer in terms of a fair comparison

You have very kindly narrowed life saving decisions down to four options..

I'm sorry butin my world things are never so black and white, There will be a host of options and I guess that as usual we will agree todisagree

 

[oldcro]

If you are confronted with an object that you have to swerve around, look at where you want to go not at what it is you're trying to miss.

Bit of a granny, eggs and sucking post I fear, but quite hard to do as it's not the natural response.

 

[Benzowner]

By the time you have decided if you are able to stop or swerve around it, most times itss to late and you have hit it. Reaction in a car when travelling at any speed over 10mph is way too slow, our brain can still not associate travelling at more than 4 or 5 miles per hour and here we are driving cars may of which are capable of 120mph+ In many many cases most collisions are on one or other wings, our natural instinct is to try and miss. When playing sport, a ball aimed at your head, instinct says duck or move out of the way, I think we take this into driving also.

Just my additional 2d

 

[flango]

of course it's doing something positive, that's the point I was making.


The brain makes these calculations and muscles react because these responses are set in our subconcious

Without wishing to offend that is definitely not the case. Subconcious decisions play no part in the responses of a professional driver, although I admit subconcious reactions will play a part in the average drivers response and the outcome of that decision will be based on luck and not judgement.

Professional drivers will be continuously analysing the road in front of them and running scenarios what could happen if x did this what is the interaction between x and Y and you? This is why professional emergency driver and the like are a breed of their own.

The response of a trained driver will be cool calm and calculated taking into account all the various scenarios and his response will be based on training and skill and not luck

 

[andy_k]

agreed, I didn't say the decision was subconcious, I said the reaction to the decision was and that is a world apart.

Simple example........

watch a small child pick up a fork and eat some food with it. Initially they can't do it but the brain and muscles work together to co-ordinate the complex string of actions to pick some food off the plate and place it in the mouth so it becomes second nature to eat with a fork

learn to play a musical instrument, and realise just how hard it is to place your fingers in exactly the right place at the right time then watch an 'expert' do it with their eyes closed. They are no different to you and they have no greater abilities. what they do have is muscle memory and that is what I meant when I used the term subconcious.

Any impending accident/incident is a series of events we have to respond to logically and as quickly as possible and that (no matter how we dress it up) means keeping it simple - that way the brain can deal with it.

Whereas we need to think about the initital response we don't think so much about how we respond because we've responded to similar less drastic circumstances a thousand times before and we will have stored our response and how we (hopefully) avoided it and we therefore have a response in memory - how quickly we assimilate the information and apply one of our 'stored' scenarios depends on whether we avoid the problem or not.

Keeping it simple is key because then it's a lot easier to react and in most situations we have a yes/no decision to make - and yep, I was taught that by a professional driver

 

[wemorgan]

This is quite a good video to watch I think.....you need the sound on the appreciate the commentary

For those interested there are quite a few more intersting advanced motorbike rides here

YouTube - advancedbiker's Channel

For example

[YOUTUBE]Q6MweL9wrpg&feature[/YOUTUBE]

 

[glojo]

The response of a trained driver will be cool calm and calculated taking into account all the various scenarios and his response will be based on training and skill and not luck

It is just plain wrong of Andy to attempt to simplicise such a complex issue.

wemorgan
I would be interested to hear from our modern day advanced motorcyclists because back in the day.....

I would have criticised that student on numerous occassions on their positioning.

In my opinion they should NOT be out on the crown of the highway when there is oncoming traffic, especially oomphing great big artics. I would be telling them to take up the safety position and waIT

 

[glojo]

The response of a trained driver will be cool calm and calculated taking into account all the various scenarios and his response will be based on training and skill and not luck

It is just plain wrong of Andy to attempt to simplicise such a complex issue.

wemorgan
I would be interested to hear from our modern day advanced motorcyclists because back in the day.....

I would have criticised that student on numerous occassions on their positioning.

In my opinion they should NOT be out on the crown of the highway when there is oncoming traffic, especially oomphing great big artics. I would be telling them to take up the safety position and wait for this traffic to clear. I would then like to seemore movement of the bike so that the rider had maximum views of the road ahead, plus theconditions, hazards etc. Asthe instructor I would have also been close enough to make sure the pupil was making correct use of their mirrors.

I'm guessing they held back the speed because the ride was videod

I guess the radio communications is here to stay but it is not something I ever used. Is it a good thing?

 

[Sp!ke]

I thought the very same.

His positioning often wouldnt have been my choice. Not just when he was in the crown with oncoming vehicles but also a couple of times he moved in to the left for visibility when there was a left hand junction closing in. Personally, I use more of the road for visibility and use the opposing lane as well wherever possible.

He also overtook a car and then immediately backed off forcing the car he'd just overtaken to slow down.

As for the radio's, I've just bought a pair of bike to bike radio's (surprisingly cheap) and am rather impressed. A whole new dimension to motorcycling for me. Currently using it for training Mrs Sp!ke to ride but I think they'll be a permanent feature for riding from now on as they are mostr useful.

 

[andy_k]

I'm not aware that I was oversimplifying anything

Multiple scenarios, training , skill not luck etc all come down to a basic decision making process yes, no or maybe (which is generally another yes/no for the brain to process)

Look at a computer, how 'clever' are they, how good at making decisions? The answer is they are not at all clever they are not but what they can do is process simple calculations (yes/no) they have been programmed to deal with very quickly.

The more we break down the information surrounding us, the simpler it becomes to understand and the easier it becomes to respond to

What I did say and still maintain is that your earlobe example was a daft way of testing a persons ability to react.

Reaction times don't mean a thing, response (which we learn) times are what matter

A monkey could be trained to touch it's earlobe the second you shouted at it - does that make it a better driver than most of the population?

 

[glojo]

A monkey could be trained to touch it's earlobe the second you shouted at it - does that make it a better driver than most of the population?

You are being to literal... I am saying that it is wrong to measure our reaction times by just pressing a button.

I gave the earlobe as an example... It does not matter if I say nose, ear, tooth,foot, wall, ceiling, left buttock, right toe nail or the nearestpink elephant.

to me a reaction time should be measured from the start of an event outside of the expected, to the time we take to react in a constructive manner. Simply blinking, screaming or clicking a mouse button is not a proper testof our reactions to a life endangering event, but again this is daft olde me .

 

[whitenemesis]

Reaction / Response two different things

Shout in some one's ear:-

Reaction - "WTF!!!"

Response - a smack in the mouth.

So, a child runs out in front of the car. Reaction - "WTF!!" Response - swerve, brake..

Reaction time => 300ms

Response time = reaction time + training / experience time.

Generally = collision / injured child (at best)

 

[glojo]

but also a couple of times he moved in to the left for visibility when there was a left hand junction closing in. Personally, I use more of the road for visibility and use the opposing lane as well wherever possible.

I picked up on that left-hand positioning but the footage was not good enough to decide what the view was into that junction... By that I mean that if we had a decent view of the side road and it was completely devoid of any traffic then the positioning would be ok.

Using the offside of a carriageway always used to be a very strict no,no. I personally can see no harm IF... The bend wascompletely FULLY open and the rider had a clear view of the carriageway, but I am still not convinced as we are talking about public road riding and teaching something that might be seen as a bad habit is not a good idea, BUT....

Radio's
I am obvioiusly olde skool and these items are here.

My thoughts are.... can they be a distraction? I would prefer letting the rider do his thing and then have a constructive de-brief. If the riding was too bad, then I would stop them

Talking about an event that has just happened whilst still riding can perhaps be off putting and distracting... What has happened,has happened. Move on, put it behind you and concentrate on your riding is my thoughts.

 

[glojo]

Reaction / Response two different things

Shout in some one's ear:-

Reaction - "WTF!!!"

Response - a smack in the mouth.

So, a child runs out in front of the car. Reaction - "WTF!!" Response - swerve, brake..

Reaction time => 300ms

Response time = reaction time + training / experience time.

Generally = collision / injured child (at best)

Bad, bad driving skills\abilities... Your response answer needs a lot more thought as regards the correct response to the event Your reactions were wrong

 

[andy_k]

surely the thought should be going on before the event not after it

If the driver is aware of the road around him/her they are in the perfect position to respond to any sudden change in these circumstances.

Fo example, if you are aware that you hve no oncoming traffic and a child runs out in front of you swerve/brake would be a pretty good response answer.

If you have to look around you before you make the decision then it's probably too late.

Where we live 90% of our driving is done on rural single carriageway roads, the sort of roads where if you don't concentrate you are either in a ditch/field/hedge or under a tractor. Couple that with a population that all seem to be over 100 years old and it makes for challenging/interesting driving conditions

 

[flango]

I'm not aware that I was oversimplifying anything

Multiple scenarios, training , skill not luck etc all come down to a basic decision making process yes, no or maybe (which is generally another yes/no for the brain to process)

Maybe does not figure in this situation it's either YES or NO, GO or NO GO. You cant afford to hesitate or delay thats when lives are lost.

There is no need to look around you before you take your decision you should be looking all the time processing that information and anticipating any likely scenarios, such as a child running out. There will be signs you just have to be trained to spot them.

Swerving or braking would not be a good response answer as clearly all the options have not been evaluated, if you swerved could you keep control of the car? would it put you into a skid/ slide? Would braking be most appropriate? (the natural action I agree but might not be suitable in this situation) would braking alone suffice do you have a safe braking zone to stop? what if you dont? = dead child.

A good well trained driver would have recognised the signs of a child running out and would already know what he was going to do, but because of the safety cell advanced drivers drive within they would have had sufficient time to stop without any emergency braking thus avoiding tradgedy.

 

[glojo]

surely the thought should be going on before the event not after it

If the driver is aware of the road around him/her they are in the perfect position to respond to any sudden change in these circumstances.

Fo example, if you are aware that you hve no oncoming traffic and a child runs out in front of you swerve/brake would be a pretty good response answer.

If you have to look around you before you make the decision then it's probably too late.

Where we live 90% of our driving is done on rural single carriageway roads, the sort of roads where if you don't concentrate you are either in a ditch/field/hedge or under a tractor. Couple that with a population that all seem to be over 100 years old and it makes for challenging/interesting driving conditions

Your comments are showing you need to either have an advanced refresher course or take advanced driving tuition

I was very impressed with Sp!ke's observations regarding that video and there speaks a person that knows his Roadcraft.

In my little World there is a whole host of difference between a reflex response and a reaction to the unexpected. The reflex action or preprogammed response is a sure recipe for disaster.

Reacting in a cool, carm, professional manner will save lives.

Whitenemis has summed it up perfectly

Shout in someones ear = totally unexpected action and our victim responds by....

"WTF!"

We may kid ourselves and pretend that this comment only takes milliseconds but I would contend that is tosh...

The brain will say... "WTF!" and it then needs to assess what is happening,and most drivers that are perhaps not paying complete and full attention will then have to reassess the incident.

It is however pointless discussing as those that think they are the perfect driver\rider might not be so perfect.

Now that I have suggested that Andy's reactions are completely wrong,what sdo we think he should have done? I am notgoing to say as that would be too easy and if I did, then the accused would say, "I meant to say that!" or "I would also do that!"

They have however explained what they would do and I say they are wrong

Can I very,very respectfully suggest that those who have not had any advanced driving lesson please just consider a trial lesson or three?

My old Royal Marine Sergeant was no man's fool when he said,

"The day you pass your driving test, is the day you start to develop bad habits!"

Just because we have been driving for thirty years does not make us an expert in driving.

I have had a computer for years.. I started off with Windows 3.0 and played with my autoexec.bat and config.sys but...... I am a complete and utter fikkie, I know NOTHING about computers and I admit it. Just because we do something for year in, year out does not make us experts.. It is the building up of knowledge that makes us experts and I would listen to those that have honed their driving skills on our very busy, and very dangerous public highways and got the qualifications to talk the talk

Just remembered

I have NEVER passed a UK car drivng test

but



>>



>>

When I passed my HGV class 1 test that also counts as a pass for motor cars


Before you all think I am way too old............

I passed my car and motor cycle tests with the the Royal Marines

 

[glojo]

Maybe does not figure in this situation it's either YES or NO, GO or NO GO. You cant afford to hesitate or delay thats when lives are lost.

There is no need to look around you before you take your decision you should be looking all the time processing that information and anticipating any likely scenarios, such as a child running out. There will be signs you just have to be trained to spot them.

Swerving or braking would not be a good response answer as clearly all the options have not been evaluated, if you swerved could you keep control of the car? would it put you into a skid/ slide? Would braking be most appropriate? (the natural action I agree but might not be suitable in this situation) would braking alone suffice do you have a safe braking zone to stop? what if you dont? = dead child.

A good well trained driver would have recognised the signs of a child running out and would already know what he was going to do, but because of the safety cell advanced drivers drive within they would have had sufficient time to stop without any emergency braking thus avoiding tradgedy.

Iam guessing we were writing at the same time

 

[jonathan]

I dont know if this counts as a test for reaction time. I was just stuffing my face with a doughnut holding it with two hands. As i bit into it a big lump of sugar dropped off it. I caught it before it hit the ground. That means i had to lower my hand from the same hight as the sugar fell from and get under it. Also i wasnt expecting it so i would say that was a fair test. Couldnt do it again for a bit i just ate three of them, I cant move.

 

[flango]

Iam guessing we were writing at the same time

It would appear so What is it they say "great minds think alike" or " fools seldom difffer" I never can quite remember